Introduction: Lord Verjee

Rumi Verjee, Esquire, CBE, having been created Baron Verjee, of Portobello in the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, was introduced and took the oath, supported by Lord Dholakia and Baroness Brinton, and signed an undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct.

Introduction: Baroness Suttie

Alison Mary Suttie, having been created Baroness Suttie, of Hawick in the Scottish Borders, was introduced and took the oath, supported by Baroness Scott of Needham Market and Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope, and signed an undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct.

Russia: Human Rights
	 — 
	Question

Lord Lexden: To ask Her Majesty’s Government what has been the response to the representations they have made to the government of Russia about the abuse of human rights of homosexuals in that country.

Baroness Warsi: My Lords, the Prime Minister raised concerns about the protection of human rights for LGBT people with President Putin in their meeting at the G20 in September. The Russian authorities have given assurances that discrimination against sexual minorities is forbidden by their constitution, but we remain concerned about the protection of human rights for LGBT individuals and communities in Russia and about the impact of legislation banning the promotion of non-traditional sexual relations to minors on Russia’s LGBT community.

Lord Lexden: I am grateful to my noble friend for confirming the Government’s opposition to oppressive new laws in Russia. What assessment have the Government made of the impact of the new laws on the lives of ordinary homosexual people and on the working of the civil organisations dedicated to promoting their welfare and interest? What steps are the Government taking to discourage other countries in the region from enacting similarly oppressive laws?

Baroness Warsi: My Lords, these laws have a huge impact on individuals and communities, in the way in which these communities feel that they can exercise their right to freedom of expression and peaceful assembly. The NGOs on LGBT issues with which we
	have been working in Russia and other regions say that this has led to concerns of an increase in homophobia and homophobic attacks. It has also meant that the operating environment for NGOs that work in the LGBT field is much more difficult. We have been raising this matter for a number of years, since these laws first started to be enacted on a regional or provincial level, before it became national law. During 2013-14, we have invested £1.3 million specifically into NGOs working to protect human rights, of which LGBT is one area.

Lord Morgan: My Lords, the Orthodox Church has been remarkably bigoted in dealing with this issue. Does the Minister have any particular information on protests made by churches in Russia against this cruel persecution of a minority?

Baroness Warsi: I am not sure how the Orthodox Church, or any faith communities, have responded on this issue. However, the noble Lord will be aware that this issue can be seen in the light of our concerns on general human rights issues in Russia. He will be aware that Russia was one of our countries of concern referred to in our human rights report, and concerns about LGBT issues formed a large part of that.

Baroness Falkner of Margravine: My Lords, does my noble friend agree that when President Putin says that there is no discrimination against homosexual people in Russia, we need to press him in discussions to enshrine in law non-discrimination regarding minors’ access to information? Moreover, what discussions are Her Majesty’s Government having with the Council of Europe on Russia’s membership, given that Russia has repeatedly been found to be the worst country for gay people to live in of the 49 countries that are members of the Council of Europe?

Baroness Warsi: First, I assure my noble friend that we take these matters incredibly seriously. The subject was raised by the Prime Minister at the highest level at the G20 in St Petersburg, and it was also raised at the margins. It was raised a few weeks later by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary with Foreign Minister Lavrov at the UN General Assembly in New York. We also have an annual human rights dialogue; in fact, we are one of the few countries, if not the only country in the European Union, to have that particular dialogue with Russia. We had our latest dialogue in May of this year and, in that, we raised the issue of LGBT issues. So it is a matter that we continue to press on, and one that we have raised at both a political and an official level.

Lord Laming: My Lords, will the noble Baroness remind the House that the Russian Parliament recently passed legislation that is punitive towards gay people and that there can be no question of gay people being accorded equality in that country while this legislation remains on the statute book?

Baroness Warsi: It may be inappropriate for me to comment on a particular piece of legislation in a particular country but it seems fairly obvious from an initial reading of how this law has been drafted that it is in stark conflict with what the Russians say is part of their constitution.

Lord Bach: My Lords, Amnesty International’s report, Freedom under Threat, which I am sure the noble Baroness knows well, highlights the provocation and discrimination sustained by those in Russia who are protesting against the recent legislation which has just been referred to. Does the Minister believe that the representations made by Her Majesty’s Government have had any effect whatever on the Russians, and what do the Government intend to do next about it? Is the noble Baroness aware—I am sure that she is—of the very strong feeling not just in this House but in the country which expects the Government to use every opportunity to point out to the Russian Government that their behaviour in the field of human rights generally, and on LGBT rights in particular, is completely unacceptable?

Baroness Warsi: As the Minister with responsibility for human rights I can assure the noble Lord that this is an area that I not only cover as part of my brief in my job but take incredibly seriously. He will also be aware of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister’s personal commitment to these issues. This is not a matter on which we just make submissions in the margins of another meeting, it is something that we put to the front and centre in our meetings, which is why the Prime Minister has raised it at the highest level. I think that noble Lords will accept that it is our job to communicate and stress the strength of feeling not only in this House but across the country, as the noble Lord said, as well as to do the project work needed to support the NGOs which are doing the very difficult work on the ground.

Lord Taverne: My Lords, will the Government also protest in the strongest possible terms about the appalling treatment of Greenpeace protestors?

Baroness Warsi: Noble Lords will of course be aware of the issue of the “Arctic Sunrise”—it has been in the headlines for a number of weeks—whose 30-person crew includes six Brits. The Foreign Secretary raised the issue with Foreign Minister Lavrov at the UN General Assembly and subsequently wrote to him in October. The Foreign Secretary has also met Greenpeace’s executive director, and officials are in regular contact. I can assure the House that extensive consular assistance and support has been provided to these individuals. However, at this stage we are treating it as a consular matter as we feel that that is the best way of progressing it to a positive outcome.

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I am sure the Minister is aware that the Russians treated with acclaim the victory by Lord Nelson at Trafalgar 208 years ago today, and I wonder whether the Royal Navy could maybe come to the nation’s assistance again. The coalition has been asking people to buy HMS “Illustrious”—which is the third “Invincible” class carrier, the other two having been scrapped earlier this year. I wonder if the House authorities might like to buy it to berth alongside the Palace of Westminster and accommodate the huge number of new Peers being created.

Baroness Warsi: My Lords, I have a huge amount of time and, indeed, a soft spot for the noble Lord, but I think that that question is probably outside the remit of this particular Question.

Syria: Humanitarian Aid
	 — 
	Question

Tabled by Baroness Quin
	To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have held with other governments about increasing humanitarian aid to Syrian refugees.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lady Quin, and at her request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper.

Baroness Northover: My Lords, the Government are in regular contact with other Governments about increasing humanitarian aid for Syrian refugees and Syrians in need within Syria. The UK led a lobbying effort at the G20 and the UN General Assembly last month, which raised a further $1 billion in pledges from the international community.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness and welcome the extent of the aid provided so far by the Government. There are some 2 million refugees outside Syria and some 4 million have been displaced by the conflict but there is also a need to get immediate assistance to those trapped in besieged areas and facing starvation. How can we best respond to the UN call today seeking to secure a halt to the fighting to allow desperately needed aid to get through?

Baroness Northover: I thank the noble Lord for his tribute to the Government for what they are doing. It is a dire situation, which noble Lords will see from the figures. A year ago there were 230,000 refugees from Syria. Now there are 2.1 million refugees—an eightfold increase. Clearly we have to work extremely hard to make sure that the pledges to which countries have committed themselves are delivered. We are pleased that the figure has reached the £1 billion mark but it is not sufficient and it is extremely important that humanitarian access is granted within Syria so that aid can get in where it is needed.

Baroness Hollins: Can the Minister tell the House how Her Majesty’s Government are assisting UK-based charities working in Syria—such as Hand in Hand which featured recently on “Panorama”—either financially or by supporting links with international NGOs? Hand in Hand, which includes senior NHS doctors, is providing medical aid directly into areas outside government control—areas which international NGOs are unable to access. Will the Minister meet Hand in Hand directors with me to explore possible assistance to their work?

Baroness Northover: I am very happy to meet representatives from Hand in Hand, and I note what David Nott said over the weekend about his experiences
	in Syria—the stories that he was reporting back were absolutely horrendous. The Government work very closely with a number of NGOs in this area and a range of organisations is working to try to get humanitarian aid in.

Lord Avebury: My Lords, I am sure the whole House will welcome the extra £100 million recently allocated to humanitarian aid to Syria by the Deputy Prime Minister. What additional efforts does the Minister think could be made to persuade our European Union colleagues at the Commission to match the efforts that we are already making? The UK’s £500 million contribution is by far the largest of any European Union nation. Can we not persuade our colleagues to match that?

Baroness Northover: Yes, the Deputy Prime Minister led the UK delegation to the UN General Assembly and I am very pleased indeed that we were able to pledge, as my noble friend has said, a further £100 million at the General Assembly, bringing us up to the level of £500 million and making us the second largest bilateral donor. The European Commission has contributed $1.2 billion since the beginning of the Syria crisis and we have been working across the EU to encourage all countries to contribute.

Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: Can the noble Baroness tell the House what humanitarian aid is being given to the Christian community in Syria? In particular have the Government made representations about the disappearance of Archbishop Yohanna of Aleppo who disappeared earlier this year on 23 April?

Baroness Northover: There are a number of groups suffering in particular in Syria and the noble Baroness is right to highlight the particular plight of Christians. We are emphasising their particular need. I will get her an update on the situation in relation to the Archbishop but she can be assured that the UK Government are well aware of the situation affecting these groups within Syria.

Lord Wright of Richmond: Can the noble Baroness tell the House what steps we are taking to re-establish direct bilateral contact with the Syrian Government in Damascus, if only to enable us to help persuade President Assad’s Government to provide secure access for much needed humanitarian assistance within Syria itself?

Baroness Northover: The noble Lord will know about the UN Security Council presidential statement issued about three weeks ago seeking better humanitarian access and putting particular responsibility upon the Syrian Government. There are a number of things which the Syrian Government could do to make sure that visas are granted more readily and that travel permits are granted so that humanitarian aid can get in. Efforts are being taken forward to try to bring forward the peace process and I am sure he will know that UN Special Envoy Brahimi is leading an intensive period of preparation to try to ensure that there is a meeting in November for the Geneva 2 process.

Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: My Lords, does the Minister agree with Medecins Sans Frontières, which says that the Syrian people are now presented with the absurd situation of chemical weapons inspectors freely driving through areas of desperate need while ambulances, food and drug supplies are being blocked? Is it not the case that two weeks after the Security Council agreement on access for humanitarian aid, nothing has actually changed?

Baroness Northover: The noble Baroness highlights a key point. It is obviously encouraging that the chemical weapons inspectors have been able to get into the areas they wished to visit, but it has also been quite striking that humanitarian aid has not necessarily been able to get into those same places. That is one of the reasons why the international community is putting particular stress on trying to encourage the Syrian Government to grant those rights of passage for humanitarian reasons.

NHS: EU Legislation
	 — 
	Question

Lord Kakkar: To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent assessment they have made of the impact of European Union legislation on training and service delivery in the National Health Service.

Earl Howe: We are aware that concerns exist about the impact of EU legislation on some areas of training and service delivery within the NHS. That is why we recently announced the review of the implementation and impact of the working time directive, to be led by the Royal College of Surgeons. This follows the balance of competences review for health, which included concerns about the impact of this directive on continuity of care and doctors’ training.

Lord Kakkar: My Lords, I declare an interest as professor of surgery at University College London. In 2010, the then Secretary of State for Health and Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills were due to commence robust negotiations with our European partners on the working time regulations. Despite the welcome announcement of the current Health Secretary’s further review of the impact of those regulations, do the Government stand by their commitment to repeal this detrimental legislation as it applies to healthcare? This is now increasingly cited by coroners as having contributed to patient harm. Moreover, our trainees tell us that it is now undermining their ability to acquire the necessary skills for future independent consultant practice. Patients and doctors alike now blame these regulations for a destruction of professionalism in our health service.

Earl Howe: My Lords, it is the impact on our health service that we want the Royal College of Surgeons to look at specifically. In the coalition agreement, we committed to limiting the application of the working time directive in the UK, including in the NHS. Nobody wants to go back to the bad old days of tired doctors, but it is important for the working time
	directive to have more flexibility for a health service that operates on a 24-hour basis. Increased flexibility for the NHS would allow it to take account of local needs and practices, while at the same time ensuring the health and safety of the workforce. We stand prepared to work with partners in Europe to that end. I believe there is strong support in the NHS for this.

Lord Ribeiro: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for acknowledging the role that the president of the Royal College of Surgeons is playing to ensure that the European working time directive is not having an adverse impact on patient care. In the United States, the duty hours that surgeons work are limited to 80, although flexibility has been introduced into their working so that trainees nearing independent practice can work more flexibly and for more hours. As 80% of surgical trainees currently work more than 48 hours a week, is it not time that we applied some flexibility to the European working time directive?

Earl Howe: My noble friend speaks, as always, with great authority on these matters. The independent review is by clinicians and of clinicians, looking specifically at the issues associated with the implementation of the directive. It means that any issues that are identified and can be acted on without needing to change the law—which was one of the points underlying my noble friend’s question—could lead to swift and effective action. In addition, my noble friend might like to know that the review will be looking at how the directive interacts with the junior doctors’ contract. It is intended to provide a sensible front-line view of doctors’ working hours.

Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, does the Minister accept that the idea that the working time directive is universally denigrated by all members of staff of the National Health Service is very far from the truth? Does he also accept that there is a need to protect patients and the health of doctors themselves by having something along the lines of the working time directive, and that the Royal College of Surgeons ought to accept that that is the case?

Earl Howe: My Lords, I stress that this is not a step to find a way to make doctors work longer. As I said a moment ago, it is clearly in nobody’s interest to go back to the days when doctors were constantly tired and worked excessive hours. However, when senior clinicians tell us, as they have, that the implementation of the directive is harming patient safety and doctors’ training, we have to take that seriously. That is why we want to take a closer look at how this directive is impacting on the ground.

Lord Willis of Knaresborough: My Lords, I welcome my noble friend’s very strong comment that the working time directive has huge benefits, as well as clearly having challenges. However, in terms of this review of surgeons’ training, will he also look at the fact that for at least two and a half days a week most of our theatres are absolutely empty, with no activity taking place? One of the big requirements is that there
	should be more activity in terms of elective surgery within our hospitals—which would itself help the whole training issue.

Earl Howe: My noble friend makes an extremely good point, which I shall ensure is not lost on the president of the Royal College of Surgeons as he conducts his review.

Lord Crisp: My Lords, this argument has been going on for a very long time—at least a decade. Will the Minister let us know when he expects the review to report and when he thinks that some action will come about as a result of it?

Earl Howe: We have asked the review to report by the end of January next year. We believe that that is an achievable target from the point of view of those carrying out the review, and the Government will not be slow to react to any recommendations made.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I refer noble Lords to my health interests in the register. The noble Earl will be aware that this country has introduced a strong process of revalidation of doctors and continuing professional development. Can he assure that House that doctors who come to practise in the UK from other European countries will have been subject to as strict a regime as that in the UK?

Earl Howe: My Lords, the noble Lord will know that doctors from the European Economic Area are deemed to have professional skills equivalent to those of doctors trained in this country. When doctors come from outside the European Economic Area, then, indeed, the GMC puts procedures in place to ensure that the skills of those professional people match those that we would wish to see in the National Health Service.

Viscount Bridgeman: Can the Minister confirm that the proposed amendment to the free movement directive now gives competent authorities the powers to test EEA nurses for English proficiency before they get clearance to practise in the UK? If that is so, is it, in the Minister’s view, adequate in the interests of patient safety?

Earl Howe: My Lords, my department is absolutely committed to ensuring that regulated healthcare professionals are not able to work in the NHS without adequate English skills. The revision of the mutual recognition of professional qualifications directive, which impacts on registrations from within the EEA, clarifies that regulators such as the NMC can undertake proportionate language controls on professionals following registration.

Housing: Under-occupancy Charge
	 — 
	Question

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: To ask Her Majesty’s Government what advice they give to social landlords whose tenants have fallen into arrears as a result of the under-occupancy charge.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of a housing association and I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

Lord Freud: My Lords, social landlords had more than a year to design, develop and deliver strategies to mitigate the effects of under-occupancy and were advised to start building responsibly to avoid driving people into arrears. Prior to implementation, the Government, working collaboratively with the Chartered Institute of Housing, produced specific guidance for landlords, Making It Fit, and continue to fund its Making Best Use of Stock team, which assists landlords to find suitably sized accommodation for tenants. Fact sheets containing advice on home swaps, money management, payment options and how to look for and find work have also been issued. To be clear, 60% of those requiring social housing are single or couples without children, but over the last decades landlords have ignored this fact, resulting in larger homes being built, even though the greatest need is for smaller properties. Finally, £190 million has been provided this year to help vulnerable claimants.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, a recent sample shows that half of all affected tenants are in arrears and that three-bed houses are now hard to let. Do we move tenants to smaller accommodation? It cannot be done because there is none. Do we increase income with discretionary payments? For the 90% who are ineligible, it will not be done. Do we allow arrears to soar? As this could send us into the red, it should not be done. Or do we evict vulnerable families from their three-bed homes into temporary accommodation, back into an unwanted, hard-to-let, three-bed house? That cannot be done. If we ignore the futility, misery and cost, which of these options does the Minister favour?

Lord Freud: My Lords, it is simply premature to come to any conclusions as to the level of arrears. We will, of course, provide that information when we have the kind of reliable information that this House requires me, as a Minister, to deliver. There have been various surveys, but the samples are just too narrow. There are 1.4 million one-bedroom properties in the social rented sector and we are looking to have those managed more efficiently. I remind noble Lords that the scare stories about what would happen to our LHA reforms were very similar to the kind of stories that are being propagated now and we have not seen any poor reaction in terms of homelessness as a result of those reforms.

Lord Best: My Lords, in relation to the evidence that the Minister mentions, can he give us an update on the consultation with me and others that he promised when noble Lords rejected the so-called bedroom tax repeatedly and firmly? When will that research programme be the subject of consultation with us? When is it likely to be concluded? Will he accept the evidence if it
	shows that what he calls the “scare stories” turn out to be true and that a good deal of disruption and hardship is caused by this measure?

Lord Freud: My Lords, as the noble Lord knows, an elaborate programme of research is going on around this measure and will take place over a two-year period. Regular reports will be provided. I believe that the first interim reports are coming out in the spring. I will, of course, be pleased to talk to the noble Lord about the research and will give a great deal of attention to what we find. If there are concerns, we will match them. As noble Lords will know, we have made changes to the discretionary housing payments system this year to reflect some of the early concerns that have developed and we have found an extra £35 million for that.

Lord Stoneham of Droxford: My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of Housing 21, a housing association. There is evidence that local authorities are not fully using the Government’s transitional support funding for ending the subsidy for under-occupied housing. What action are the Government taking to ensure that those in need get the support that the Government have provided for them?

Lord Freud: My Lords, my noble friend is right. Our very early soundings are that some local authorities are not spending all their DHP. Clearly, we provide that funding in order that vulnerable people are protected through this transition period and we have been monitoring that very closely.

The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds: My Lords, is the Minister aware of the evidence that people who are leaving accommodation to avoid the under-occupancy charge are being rehoused in private accommodation at greater cost? What steps are being taken to monitor this?

Lord Freud: My Lords, as I have just pointed out, we are undertaking an elaborate set of research programmes to understand this. If a family moves into private accommodation, which is more expensive, it does not necessarily mean that there is a net cost, because it frees up larger accommodation in the social rented sector to which a family can move from the expensive private sector.

Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (Amendment: Qualifying Offences) Order 2013
	 — 
	Motion to Approve

Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach
	That the draft order laid before the House on 8 July be approved.
	Relevant document: 8th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.Considered in Grand Committee on 15 October.
	Motion agreed.

Armed Forces and Reserve Forces (Compensation Scheme) (Consequential Provisions: Primary Legislation) (Northern Ireland) Order 2013
	 — 
	Motion to Approve

Moved by Lord Astor of Hever
	That the draft order laid before the House on 27 June be approved.
	Relevant document: 7th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.Considered in Grand Committee on 15 October.
	Motion agreed.

Jobseeker’s Allowance (Domestic Violence) (Amendment) Regulations 2013
	 — 
	Motion to Approve

Moved by Lord Freud
	That the draft Regulations laid before the House on 8 July be approved.
	Relevant document: 8th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.Considered in Grand Committee on 15 October.
	Motion agreed.

European Union (Approvals) Bill [HL]
	 — 
	Third Reading

Clause 1: Approval of draft decisions under Article 352 of TFEU
	Amendment
	 Moved by Lord Gardiner of Kimble
	Page 1, line 11, leave out “11560/13” and insert “12557/13”

Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, this amendment corrects a reference in the Bill to an EU document, the number of which has changed during the passage of the Bill. I beg to move.
	Amendment agreed.
	Bill passed and sent to the Commons.

Care Bill [HL]
	 — 
	Order of Consideration Motion

Moved by Earl Howe
	That the order of the House of 8 October 2013 relating to the marshalling and order of consideration of amendments for the Report stage of the Care Bill be varied so far as is necessary to enable amendment 168A to be considered first today.

Earl Howe: My Lords, the reason for this Motion is that the Government wish to give the House the opportunity to amend the order in which we take our Report stage debates today. Last week, I became aware of some concern that my Amendment 168A, relating to trust special administration, would have fallen for debate at a rather late hour this evening. I assure the House that this was not by design and that the Government are more than happy to facilitate an earlier debate. Clearly, the issue of trust special administration is an important one. I understand the wish of some noble Lords to debate it fully in prime time. Accordingly, the Motion in my name would allow the debate on Amendment 168A to be taken at the start of today’s proceedings on the Bill. I should also indicate to the House that in response to the request put to me last week by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, I would have no objection to relaxing the rules of debate that normally apply at Report so that this amendment can be debated in full if that, too, is the desire of the House. I beg to move.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, following my intervention last week. I made a similar proposition to the usual channels last Thursday, only to be told that there would be dire consequences for everything that your Lordships hold dear. I am glad that sense has none the less prevailed. I very much welcome this and support the noble Earl in his Motion.
	Motion agreed.

Care Bill [HL]
	 — 
	Report (4th Day)

Amendment 168A
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	168A: After Clause 109, insert the following new Clause—
	“Trust special administration: powers of administrator etc.
	(1) In section 65O of the National Health Service Act 2006 (Chapter 5A of Part 2: interpretation) (the existing text of which becomes subsection (1)) at the end insert—
	“(2) The references in this Chapter to taking action in relation to an NHS trust include a reference to taking action, including in relation to another NHS trust or an NHS foundation trust, which is necessary for and consequential on action taken in relation to that NHS trust.
	“(3) The references in this Chapter to taking action in relation to an NHS foundation trust include a reference to taking action, including in relation to another NHS foundation trust or an NHS trust, which is necessary for and consequential on action taken in relation to that NHS foundation trust.”
	(2) In section 65F of that Act (administrator’s draft report), in subsection (1), for “45 working days” substitute “65 working days”.
	(3) After subsection (2C) of that section insert—
	“(2D) Where the administrator recommends taking action in relation to another NHS foundation trust or an NHS trust, the references in subsection (2A) to a commissioner also include a reference to a person to which the other NHS foundation trust or the NHS trust provides services under this Act that would be affected by the action.”
	(4) In section 65G of that Act (consultation plan), in subsection (2), for “30 working days” substitute “40 working days”.
	(5) After subsection (6) of that section insert—
	“(7) Where the administrator recommends taking action in relation to another NHS foundation trust or an NHS trust, the references in subsection (4) to a commissioner also include a reference to a person to which the other NHS foundation trust or the NHS trust provides services under this Act that would be affected by the action.”
	(6) In section 65N of that Act (guidance), after subsection (1) insert—
	“(1A) It must, in so far as it applies to NHS trusts, include guidance about—
	(a) seeking the support of commissioners for an administrator’s recommendation;
	(b) involving the Board in relation to finalising an administrator’s report or draft report.”
	(7) In section 13Q of that Act (public involvement and consultation by NHS Commissioning Board), at the end insert—
	“(4) This section does not require the Board to make arrangements in relation to matters to which a trust special administrator’s report or draft report under section 65F or 65I relates before the Secretary of State makes a decision under section 65K(1), is satisfied as mentioned in section 65KB(1) or 65KD(1) or makes a decision under section 65KD(9) (as the case may be).”
	(8) In section 14Z2 of that Act (public involvement and consultation by clinical commissioning groups), at the end insert—
	“(7) This section does not require a clinical commissioning group to make arrangements in relation to matters to which a trust special administrator’s report or draft report under section 65F or 65I relates before the Secretary of State makes a decision under section 65K(1), is satisfied as mentioned in section 65KB(1) or 65KD(1) or makes a decision under section 65KD(9) (as the case may be).”
	(9) In section 242 of that Act (public involvement and consultation by NHS trusts and foundation trusts), in subsection (6)—
	(a) for “65I, 65R or 65U” substitute “or 65I”, and
	(b) for the words from “the decision” to the end substitute “the Secretary of State makes a decision under section 65K(1), is satisfied as mentioned in section 65KB(1) or 65KD(1) or makes a decision under section 65KD(9) (as the case may be).”
	(10) In Schedule 14 to the Health and Social Care Act 2012 (abolition of NHS trusts in England: consequential amendments)—
	(a) after paragraph 4 insert—
	“4A In section 13Q(4) (public involvement and consultation by Board), omit “makes a decision under section 65K(1),”.
	4B In section 14Z2 (public involvement and consultation by clinical commissioning groups), omit “makes a decision under section 65K(1),”.”,
	(b) in paragraph 15, after sub-paragraph (3) insert—
	“(3A) In subsection (2D), omit “or an NHS trust” and “or the NHS trust.”,
	(c) in paragraph 16 (the text of which becomes sub-paragraph (1)) at the end insert—
	“(2) In subsection (7) of that section, omit “or an NHS trust” and “or the NHS trust”.”,
	(d) in paragraph 24, after sub-paragraph (2) insert—
	“(2A) Omit subsection (1A).”,
	(e) after that paragraph insert—
	“24A In section 65O (interpretation)—
	(a) omit subsection (2), and
	(b) in subsection (3), omit “or an NHS trust”.”, and
	(f) in paragraph 35, omit the “and” preceding paragraph (d) and after that paragraph insert “, and
	(e) in subsection (6), omit “makes a decision under section 65K(1),”.””

Earl Howe: This clause would clarify and make small changes to the trust special administrator’s regime in the light of our experience following its use at South London Healthcare NHS Trust and Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust.
	Your Lordships will know that the regime for trust special administration was introduced by the previous Government under the Health Act 2009. The aim of the regime has always been to provide, with a tight timescale, a sustainable future for the services provided by a failed trust. The regime is only ever used as a last resort, when all other efforts by a trust and its commissioners to develop a viable model of care have been unsuccessful. There comes a point when time has to be called on local efforts to resolve the situation. Problems should not be allowed to fester, and it is not right that taxpayer resources could be diverted away from patient care to bail out failing organisations.
	The regime enables a failed trust to be put into administration. The role of the trust special administrator is to take charge of the trust while the board is legally suspended and to develop and consult on recommendations in a draft report, before making recommendations in a final report that secure a sustainable future for services. The unsustainable provider regime for NHS foundation trusts was amended in 2012 to make it compatible with the extended regulatory role given to Monitor to operate the new licensing regime. The regime is used only on an exceptional basis at the most seriously challenged NHS providers, where other solutions or interventions have failed. It is time-limited, to focus efforts on delivering a sustainable solution with statutory deadlines for each stage of the process.
	Use of the regime at South London and Mid Staffordshire suggests that two stages of the administration process need to be extended. The administrator would benefit from having more time to produce its draft report, and it would be better to have a longer consultation. The clause would therefore extend the time that the administrator has to complete these two key stages by giving 65, rather than 45, working days to produce the draft report and allowing 40, rather than 30, working days to undertake consultation on that report. The existing powers to extend the various stages of an administration beyond these statutory time limits will remain, as there will always be cases where an extension is appropriate.
	Secondly, the clause would put beyond doubt the Government’s existing position that the remit of a trust special administrator is to make recommendations that may apply to services beyond the confines of the trust in administration and that the Secretary of State, for NHS trusts, and Monitor, for foundation trusts, have the power to take decisions based on those wider recommendations.
	Where severe and prolonged problems exist, the administrator appointed must be able to propose a viable solution. It was always the Government’s intention that the interpretation of the words “in relation to” could include wider actions where necessary and consequential on primary recommendations about the trust in administration. This clarification of the scope of the administrator does not constitute a change of
	policy, is not retrospective, and is intended only to remove any uncertainty for the future.
	NHS trusts, foundation trusts and other providers do not exist in isolation from each other. They are part of a complex, interdependent, local healthcare economy. Issues of clinical and financial sustainability nearly always cross organisational boundaries. Parliament must surely have intended originally that the legislation would enable an administrator to fix the problems that it was appointed to fix. If the only way to do this is to look beyond the confines of the failing trust then that is what it must do.
	Thirdly, the clause would strengthen requirements for a trust special administrator appointed to an NHS foundation trust to seek the support of commissioners affected by their recommendations. A trust special administrator appointed to an NHS foundation trust is already required by statute to seek support for its draft and final recommendations from all commissioners of the trust in administration. This clause would extend that requirement so that the administrator would also be required to seek the support of commissioners of services affected by the administrator’s recommendations that are provided by other trust providers, with NHS England’s support being sought in the event that all commissioners did not agree.
	Fourthly, this clause would require the Secretary of State to produce guidance for trust special administrators appointed to an NHS trust about seeking commissioner support for their proposals and to involve NHS England. It is intended that the guidance would set out arrangements for a trust special administrator to seek support from NHS England for its recommendations if the trust special administrator was unable to secure the support of the commissioners affected by the recommendations.
	Fifthly, this clause would clarify that the statutory obligations of commissioners to involve and consult patients and the public in planning and making service changes do not apply in respect of the trust special administration regime. It would also clarify that the disapplication provisions apply whether the trust special administrator process relates to a failing NHS foundation trust or an NHS trust.
	As I have already set out, one of the principal benefits of the unsustainable provider regime is the speed with which it delivers recommendations for clinically and financially sustainable services. This accelerated process includes a specific consultation period, with no provision for referral for local authority scrutiny. We want to clarify that there is no potential conflict between the statutory obligation placed on commissioners and the requirements of the trust special administration regime.
	Ultimately, NHS patients and the public suffer if we do not have a workable failure regime that can secure high-quality, financially sustainable health services that are in their best interests. In addressing a systemic crisis, a trust special administrator should not be compelled to consider only some solutions, but, rather, the best solutions in the interests of patients. Only then can we resolve the situation. I beg to move.
	Amendment 168B (to Amendment 168A)
	 Moved by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
	168B: After Clause 109, line 14, at end insert—
	“( ) Before section 65F of that Act insert—
	“65ZFZF Trust special administration: measures required before powers take effect
	No power under this Act for the administrator to recommend taking action in relation to another NHS foundation trust or an NHS trust, or for any such action to be taken, shall be exercised until—
	(a) at least 5 years have passed after the passing of the Care Act 2013;
	(b) the Secretary of State has reported to both Houses of Parliament on the case for the operation of such a power; and
	(c) an order made by statutory instrument giving effect to the recommendations of such report has been laid before and approved by a resolution of both Houses of Parliament.””

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I beg to move my Amendment 168B as an amendment to Amendment 168A moved by the noble Earl, Lord Howe.
	We have just heard the noble Earl suggest that his amendment makes small changes and is a clarification of the existing law. However, it is my contention that the amendment is nothing short of a major change in policy on the reconfiguration of NHS services. Your Lordships are being asked to agree to it even though the case, or one of the cases, on which it is based—that of Lewisham hospital—is subject to an imminent Court of Appeal hearing. If it is accepted by the House, it is my view that NHS hospitals will be at risk of having services shut down without their agreement, without extensive consultation and without agreement from commissioners.
	The changes made to the special administration regime by the government amendment would also extenuate the problems caused by having a different failure regime for NHS trusts compared with NHS foundation trusts—a point that my noble friend Lord Warner has consistently made.
	Finally, to be effective, the changes could be construed as meaning that, for the first time, the Secretary of State has the power to issue directions to require the boards of solvent and successful clinical commissioning groups and NHS foundation trusts to take steps that they do not wish to take.
	I see this not as a clarification of the law but as a major policy change that is at odds with the approach taken by the Secretary of State in the 2012 Act, when he repeatedly put his faith in local commissioning by local doctors. I make it clear that I am not opposed to changes in services: I support the major reconfiguration of services where clinical evidence supports it. Indeed, I should like to see much faster progress. When I and my noble friend Lord Warner argued this during the passage of the Health and Social Care Bill, the Government ploughed on with their extensive and fragmentary changes. The Government have belatedly come to realise that the structure they imposed is actually a barrier to progress—hence the amendment. It is also clear that, given the dire financial straits of
	many NHS organisations, the special administration process is likely to be used on an increasing basis. My concern is that giving so much power to trust special administrators is the wrong way to go about it. Indeed, evidence from Lewisham and Staffordshire suggests that it will often provoke widespread opposition and slow down progress.
	As the noble Earl has said, the key change that the Government want to make is to ensure that the Secretary of State can act on recommendations that affect other NHS trusts, NHS foundation trusts or other providers and commissioners outwith the trust to which a special administrator has been appointed. How this would happen has been graphically illustrated in the case of Lewisham. The South London Healthcare NHS Trust was a badly performing trust with an accumulated deficit of £196 million. Consequently, a trust special administrator was appointed. In his draft report of 24 October 2012, he recommended that University Hospital Lewisham should no longer provide emergency care for critically ill patients who did not need to be admitted to hospital and that it should lose its obstetrics-led maternity unit.
	The Secretary of State made some changes to those recommendations but Lewisham hospital would still have seen some significant downgrading in its services. This approach had no support locally and was blatantly unfair to the people of Lewisham. As Mr Justice Silber said when the Lewisham case came to the High Court:
	“There are few issues which prompt such vociferous protest as attempts to reduce the services at a hospital which is highly regarded and which is much used by those who live in its neighbourhood”.
	In the High Court, Lewisham Council and the campaign group argued that Lewisham hospital was not in the NHS trust over which the trust special administrator had been appointed and that the Secretary of State could make recommendations and decisions only in relation to the three hospitals in the South London Healthcare NHS Trust but not in relation to hospitals outside the trust area. The judge subsequently found in favour of Lewisham Council and concluded that the trust special administrator and the Secretary of State were not entitled to make recommendations and decide to reduce services at Lewisham because it was not a hospital over which the administrator had been appointed. It was situated in a totally different trust.
	The appeal of the Lewisham decision by the Government will be held shortly. I find it remarkable that without hearing the outcome of the case they are seeking to amend the law in such a hasty way. The noble Earl said in his letter to us that the trust special administrator regime is,
	“one way in which decisive action can be taken to deal with NHS trusts or NHS foundation trusts that are unsustainable in their current form”.
	I agree, but surely not at the expense of well run trusts. Of course there need to be changes in the local health economy beyond just the trust that is failing; a trust does not fail in isolation but is part of a complex, interconnected system—change one bit and you impact on the other bits. However, the legislation was intended to deal with a simple case in which a trust had failed and was then broken up, with its assets being transferred or sold off. My contention is that this type of approach
	is not suited to major reconfiguration processes and should not be a back-door way to achieve unpopular changes.
	I should also say that the government amendment seems to introduce a major anomaly around commissioning. A clinical commissioning group that commissions services from a failing NHS foundation trust is entitled to define and protect essential NHS services, but a clinical commissioning group that commissions services from a successful NHS trust can now see local services removed, even if that clinical commissioning group considers those services to be essential.
	Further, the scheme proposed by the amendment appears to be legally ineffective. Neither a clinical commissioning group nor a foundation trust is subject to the direction-making powers of the Secretary of State—both are independent corporate bodies with boards which are responsible for making their own decisions. It is unclear to me how the boards of the clinical commissioning group and a foundation trust are supposed to be legally required to carry through any decision which is made within a special administration process relating to another body.
	Nor is it clear what happens if the commissioners do not wish to commission services against the model that the special administrator has proposed. That is the case in Mid Staffordshire, where the special administrator’s proposals have not found favour with either the public or the clinical commissioning group. There appears to be no limit to how far recommendations might stretch to be “necessary” and “consequent”. It is clear that one trust could have many commissioners, and changes in services could impact upon many other trusts. The special administrator is being given a free hand to cast his net as widely as he wishes.
	In conclusion, there are serious defects in the special administration process which the noble Earl’s amendment does little to resolve; indeed, it brings further anomalies and inconsistencies. However, my key concern about the amendment is that it removes the requirement to go through a properly defined and structured reconfiguration process, with extensive consultation with the local community. From all that we have learnt about successful reconfigurations, we know that they need to take a special form of open and honest leadership, a patient process of engagement and consultation, and proper consideration of the wider impact. The Government really should think again about this and my amendment gives them the opportunity to do so.

Baroness Warnock: My Lords, I have hesitated to speak before about the Lewisham situation, partly because I believe that some changes are needed in hospital provision over the whole country but mainly because, as a resident in the borough of Lewisham, I might be thought to be so biased that my opinions would carry no weight. However, the situation has radically changed with the introduction of the noble Earl’s amendment.
	It is completely intolerable that the law should be changed and overturned in this hasty way, regardless of the fact that everybody admits that there is no fault to be found with the Lewisham hospital administration.
	It is an admirable hospital and its extensive and thorough accident and emergency section is particularly valued by a large number of people, for whom Lewisham is a centre to which they can get easily by various forms of transport, let alone by ambulance.
	The contention that it would make little difference to the residents of Lewisham if this comprehensive A&E department were closed was risible. The tests to see how long on average it would take to get there were carried out at dead of night, and in various ways there was a great deal of false suggestion in the administrator’s conclusions. Above all, the clinical commissioners were by no means convinced and were not in agreement with the proposals.
	The reason for speaking so strongly in favour of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is that things have now moved far beyond Lewisham. I am speaking not only about the Lewisham situation; the proposals are perfectly general—the powers proposed for the Secretary of State could be used anywhere in the country.
	What we have now is a radical change of power and, as other noble Lords have said, all hospitals are now under threat of closure, whether or not they are successful or administered with financial prudence, as Lewisham has been. It seems to me that this is an absolutely arbitrary overturning of what was found in court. Therefore, I beg noble Lords to think of this amendment in that light and not just to be concerned with the two particular trusts but with hospital provision all over the country.

Lord Warner: My Lords, although I am Lord Warner of Brockley in the London Borough of Lewisham, I do not intend to speak about the Lewisham case.
	I am conscious that this is a topic which can rapidly cause eyes to glaze over as we go into some of the processes involved here. At the heart of this there is a fundamental problem which is much deeper and more serious than when the 2006 Act was passed. That was seven years ago. This procedure of trust special administrators was set up to deal with a relatively small number of cases that might come along. It was not a system set up to deal with major overhauls of acute hospitals up and down the country.
	We are now in a very different financial situation from when this earlier legislation was going through Parliament. You pays your money and you takes your choice as to who you believe about the black hole that there will be in the NHS finances at the end of this decade. If you want to believe Sir David Nicholson, the outgoing chief executive of NHS England, it will be £30 billion. A number of noble Lords may be shaking their heads because they do not wish to believe him, but he says £30 billion. If you want to believe the Nuffield Trust, it will be somewhere north of £40 billion. If you want to consider the more measured estimate last week from the chief executive of Monitor, it will be £12 billion, but that assumes a level of efficiency savings which seem somewhat like fantasy football in terms of their deliverability. It is likely to be a lot more than £12 billion.
	These are numbers which no one was even thinking about when the trust special administrator system was set up. I have some sympathy with the Government’s position because there is no doubt that we have a large and growing number of clinically and financially unsustainable acute trusts. The Government have a real problem that they are trying to tackle. However, I suggest that this particular way of tackling it is not the best way, because it is trying to adapt a system which was produced for a relatively small number of cases into a whole system set of arrangements. It has some curious quirks. It seems to treat clinical commissioning groups which are commissioning from foundation trusts differently from those commissioning from non-foundation trusts. I am not going to risk eyes glazing over by talking about this, but this set of proposals does not seem to treat different clinical commissioning groups in exactly the same way.
	We must also start to engage the public in the scale of changes that will have to be made to the NHS in order to make it sustainable. It is not just that black hole issue; it is the clinical sustainability of some of its services. We are already finding difficulty in staffing A&E departments. There is a set of issues around whether the manpower would be sufficient to enable us to keep 24/7 acute specialist services on the same number of sites. I would suggest to the Minister as humbly as I can that you are not going to deal with the scale of the problem with this set of arrangements. For the sorts of reasons that the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, set out, even if you have this set of arrangements on the statute book, you are going to end up with many cases of Lewisham hospital writ large, dotted around the country. There is nothing in these provisions which really ensures that the wider public debate about the reshaping of these services takes place. They are a recipe for a very large number of one-off local rows on a major scale. The lawyers in this House must be rubbing their hands at the prospect of judicial review because a very likely outcome of all this is a large number of contested claims about the way the exercise has been done. There simply will not be the political cover for TSAs to be bold in their thinking.
	The noble Earl said we want them to be able to give very effective consideration to the solutions that are needed. I suggest that if you are a trust special administrator and you think you will be kicked from Land’s End to the north-east because of the controversy around the proposals, that is not likely to produce whole-system changes. We now have to think about reviewing whether the TSA system is fit for purpose and meets the needs of the circumstances we now face. That is why, although I am not normally in favour of wrecking amendments, I agree with my noble friend Lord Hunt’s idea that we should have a pause and think again about the best way to reconfigure hospital services so that politicians and the public can engage with this issue and have the kinds of public debates that we badly need to have if we are to maintain the NHS in anything like the form it is today.

Baroness Meacher: My Lords, in part, I support the Minister because, as the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said, the Government have a problem. We know that for many years there have been attempts to close
	hospitals that need to be closed and it can take 15 years for that to happen. If the Government can come forward with a sensible, reasonable way of making those decisions, I will back it all the way. However, I find myself agreeing with the idea that a rather quick fix designed to achieve some solution to the Lewisham problem is not the way to do it. This is a national problem of considerable significance. I ask the Minister to take this away, think hard about it and come back with a good set of proposals to help this country close hospitals when they need to be closed. I would certainly be there behind him.

Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, although I sit in this House as Lord Kennedy of Southwark, I actually live in Lewisham, very close to the hospital. I agree with the comments made by my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath. This is a major change of policy being sneaked through the door by the Government. I am amazed that the Minister has brought his amendment today when we are just a few days away from the case being heard in the Court of Appeal—it will be heard next week, I believe.
	I live close to the hospital and I refer noble Lords to my declaration of interest that on a voluntary basis I chair a small committee in the hospital. Whatever the problems of the South London Healthcare NHS Trust, I cannot adequately describe to noble Lords the sense of injustice, unfairness and hurt about what is being imposed by the administrator. We have a good local hospital, which is supported by the local community, delivers on its targets and objectives and is financially solvent, but the administrator came along and ripped the heart out of the hospital.
	I contend that the purpose of this amendment is to try to stop the campaign that we have seen in Lewisham over the past few months. The campaign has united the community like never before. We had more than 25,000 people on our march. Streets are plastered with posters to save the hospital. Any political party would be envious of the posters up in people’s windows about this campaign. Our local campaign is chaired by a local GP and has brought together health professionals and the local community.
	Will the Minister tell the House whether he has visited Lewisham hospital? I asked him that question earlier this year; I know that he had not been then and hope that he has been there since to see the amount of local support and what a good local hospital it is. More important, there is no support at all for what the Government propose today. I hope that the House will support the amendment of my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and reject the amendment of the noble Earl.

Lord Patel: My Lords, I find myself in a strange position, because I agree in part with the amendment moved by the noble Earl and in part with the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, although that is not a solution.
	I agree with the noble Earl that we need to find a way of reconfiguring NHS services. That reconfiguration cannot just be done through dealing with failing hospitals. It must include other hospitals which currently seem to be delivering good-quality services. We have to find
	a way out of that. The question is therefore whether the amendment allows us to move forward with reconfiguring NHS services. This is where I find myself more in tune with the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that it may not and that more is required.
	Another concern I have is that the commissioners may express views. I would like some explanation of why the commissioners of the NHS foundation trust are to be treated separately from those who commission services from other hospitals. Another issue is that, if the commissioners disagree, NHS England would make the decision. That means that, ipso facto, they will agree with a special administrator—or they will not. In that case, what happens?
	Another issue is consultation. Clearly, none of the configuration can occur smoothly unless the public are consulted. At what point will the special administrator consult both the public served by the failing hospital and the public served by the hospital that is not failing but whose services may require reconfiguration?
	In summary, therefore, there is a need for amendments that will allow us to move forward with the reconfiguration of services throughout England. In that respect, I am with the noble Earl, but I wonder if he needs to go a bit further. He might consider looking at this further and tabling more amendments at a later stage.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, there is of course quite a long process still to be gone through on the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has said, it seems clear that there is a serious problem. It occurs to me that the special administrator’s primary emphasis will be on the trust to which he or she has been appointed. It is also obvious that changes to one trust may affect neighbouring trusts. Some solution to the problems in the special administrator’s trust may rely on something done in a neighbouring trust.
	On the other hand, in that situation it is extremely important that concentration on the problems of the neighbouring trust is given considerable emphasis. Otherwise, the situation may be distorted by too great an emphasis on the special administrator’s trust at the expense of neighbouring trusts brought in to try to help. I wonder whether the wise course might be for us to accept the amendment, in so far as it goes, with an undertaking that, as the Bill proceeds in the other place, that matter would be seriously considered.
	This may be an opportunity for legislation that will not quickly arise again. As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said, there is a serious problem and it might not be wise to put it off indefinitely. I can see the difficulties and understand the situation of the noble Lord, Lord Patel, but it is very difficult to see how to sort this out today. On the other hand, it might be unwise to lose the opportunity to take a step forward in the hope of improving the situation in later stages of this Bill.

Baroness Barker: My Lords, during the deliberations on the Health and Social Care Bill, we spent a considerable amount of time discussing the details of the trust special administration arrangements, not least because it was the first occasion on which a
	legal process of that kind had been in legislation. We were aware then, and perhaps even more so now, that there has to be some power to bring these decisions to a conclusion. I find it remarkable that people have demonstrated in favour of keeping open Mid Staffordshire hospital, but they have. That is the power of emotion in respect of hospital care in particular.
	However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that this amendment is not quite what is needed, although there are some things in it which are to be welcomed. The process that needs to be gone through whenever a hospital is to be closed is to reassure the public that there will be access to alternative services. That is the absolutely critical point and it was with that in mind that I was somewhat taken aback to hear the Minister say that this procedure—and I bear in mind that, as he said, this is the last procedure in a very long process—takes away from the trust special administrator the requirement to involve the public and the patients. It seems to me that that is the very last thing that you would want to do if you were trying to have a process involving political engagement. I therefore ask him how the department came to that decision.

Earl Howe: My Lords, the matters we have debated today are of great significance. Of course—and I need to make this clear—we do not want to see any NHS trust or foundation trust fail, but equally we cannot shirk the responsibility to take action if and when that happens. In our taxpayer-funded health system, every pound counts and every pound should be put to best use, providing high-quality, effective care. Failed organisations squander resources. I do not want to be derogatory about them in other ways, but they usually take for themselves an unfair proportion of resources in relation to the local health economy more widely. Failed organisations, if nothing is done, have to be propped up by government bail-outs. That cannot be right, particularly at a time when resources are as constrained as they are now. We need an effective regime for tackling these issues.
	The House has agreed with this on two previous occasions, passing legislation in 2009, during the time of the previous Government, and again in 2012 to provide failure regimes for trusts and foundation trusts respectively. We thought that those regimes would be effective, but experience now shows that they need clarification. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, suggested that this amendment represented a major change of policy and the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, characterised it as an arbitrary overturning of the decision of the court in the south London case. The Government’s policy has been consistent. It is entirely unchanged. It is self-evidently not a change of policy. Had it been so, the recommendations made by the trust special administrator in south London would have been ones that we would have questioned as legally dubious in the department. On the contrary, we believe that the administrator’s recommendations fell squarely within the wording of the 2009 Act, which, as I mentioned earlier, used the phrase, “in relation to”. That was the phrase around which the judge’s ruling revolved, and it was a different interpretation of that phrase that the judge took.
	The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is very knowledgeable about the heath service, but I am afraid that on this matter he is wrong. His amendment would render the failure regime quite useless. Five years is too long for a failed hospital and the patients it serves to wait for an effective remedy, to say nothing of the cost to the public purse. One of the provisions that the noble Lord has tabled would require the Secretary of State to justify making the power operational after the end of the five-year period, but is that not the debate we should have now? In any event, the effect of accepting his amendment would lead to an incoherent muddle. Either the House believes that a trust special administrator must be able to take the action necessary to resolve serious and prolonged problems at a trust or it does not. A long wait and a report will make no difference to the issues of substance. I urge the House to be decisive on this rather than doing what is effectively kicking a can down the road.
	I know that fears have been expressed that the clause we are inserting would enable the Government to make free with every hospital around the country. That is not so. In fact, I submit to your Lordships that that suggestion is scaremongering. The powers could have been used for a long time if it were the Government’s intention to close down every hospital or lots of hospitals. The regime was designed by the party opposite, lest we forget, to deal with the specific circumstances of a trust in failure. It enables an external expert to be appointed as administrator to take a fresh look at the situation and, working with the trust and its commissioners, to develop recommendations for the future.
	One needs also—I say this particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Warner—to recognise that trust special administration is only ever invoked when the normal processes for agreeing a reconfiguration have hit the buffers. In normal circumstances commissioners and providers in a locality get together and very often agree about the way services should be reconfigured to make them clinically and financially sustainable. In the case of south London and in the case of Mid Staffordshire that process has been going on for a long time. It is only because we reached an intractable position that administrators were appointed in those instances.
	We have heard today that some aspects of our amendment provoke strong feelings, particularly the clarification—and it is a clarification—that a trust special administrator can make recommendations that include other providers where those recommendations are necessary for, and consequential on, his core recommendations. I bring noble Lords’ attention to those key words. Of course I recognise those views, but I do not share them. The clarification is vital for the failure regimes to be effective. It may be possible for the solution to the problems faced by a failed organisation to be found within the boundaries of that organisation, but it may not. Indeed, it is quite likely that it will not be. The health service is formed of a complex network of interdependent providers, all influencing one another. It is plain that making changes to one has a knock-on effect elsewhere. The amendment is a reflection of that reality.
	I have a degree of sympathy with those who have argued that the effect of this could be unfair on the successful provider impacted by the failure of a neighbour. Such a step would, of course, be taken reluctantly. But I argue that it must be possible to take such a step if, and when, that is the only way of resolving the problem. The amendment would not apply retrospectively. The date of the court hearing in the south London case is therefore not relevant.
	The rest of my amendment makes minor changes and I hope that they will be acceptable to the House. I hope more strongly that the amendment as a whole will find favour. It could be, as some noble Lords have suggested, that additional things need to be done. We do not believe that to be the case but I have heard the arguments put by a number of noble Lords that the amendment might need additions at some time in future. Our minds are open to that. But I beg noble Lords not to lose this opportunity of passing my amendment, as it matters a very great deal, not just in local areas but in the health service as a whole, in the interests of equity and fairness, which, after all, underpin the whole NHS. I believe that noble Lords should reject the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt.
	These are going to be rare cases and they are always difficult. The problems by their very nature are intractable and serious. We must fix them and have mechanisms to do that in order to put services back on a sustainable footing. Otherwise, I respectfully submit, we ourselves will have failed. I beg to move.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister and other noble Lords who have spoken in what has been an excellent debate. My feeling about the debate is that the House has conclusively come to a view that further discussion needs to take place on the matter. I will come back to that in a moment.
	I agree with the noble Earl that failed organisations squander millions of pounds. He is absolutely right to say that the need for them to be propped up by others has a deleterious effect on the NHS as a whole. We know that at least 20 NHS trusts or foundation trusts are in severe financial difficulty at the moment. It is likely that that number will grow in future. That is why there is considerable doubt that the special administration provisions will apply to only a very small number of cases. There is every possibility that, over the next two or three years, it will have to be used in many cases. That is why I am concerned that the provisions that the noble Earl is asking us to agree to today will be used to lead to configuration of services in which the interests of the failing trust will be put at the heart of the process rather than interests of the health service as a whole in a given area. That is the crux of the issue and that is why Lewisham is so important. It is a very good hospital—it was minding its own business—and then, suddenly, a special administrator came along and said that to solve the problem of the trust that it was dealing with it would have to reduce Lewisham hospital services. That is the crux of the argument and why we are concerned about the provisions being put forward by the noble Earl today.
	The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, suggested that we should let the Government have their amendment today and it can then be dealt with in the other place. Of course, I always admire the other place’s assiduous attention to duty when scrutinising legislation, but the fact is that the other place is simply not geared up or able to do that. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, was rather rude about my amendment which was, of course, perfectly formed and correct in every way. Will the noble Earl, having listened to this debate, agree to pause and allow us to have further discussions—even between now and Third Reading in eight days’ time—to see whether it would be possible to come back with an amendment that is more suited to the circumstances he described? Is the noble Earl prepared to do that? If he were, I would welcome it.

Earl Howe: My Lords, I am more than willing to have discussions between now and Third Reading but I suggest to the House that it is necessary to pass the government amendment now and to look at whether we need to change that amendment at a future date. Our minds are open to that but, unless we pass the government amendment, we will have missed a historic opportunity to correct a vital lacuna in the law for the benefit of the NHS as a whole.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl. It would, however, be possible for him not to move his own amendment today, to allow for further discussions and to table a revised amendment at Third Reading. That is as far as I can go in offering the Opposition’s help in this matter.

Earl Howe: I am grateful to the noble Lord. However, as I indicated, this is a pressing and urgent matter. While I am always open to inter-party discussions, the time has come for the House to take a decision.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, in view of that, I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Division on Amendment 168B
	Contents 176; Not-Contents 242.
	Amendment 168B disagreed.

Amendment 168A agreed.
	Amendment 141A not moved.
	Amendment 142
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	142: After Clause 82, insert the following new Clause—
	“Chief Inspectors
	After paragraph 3 of Schedule 1 to the Health and Social Care Act 2008 insert—
	“Chief Inspectors
	3A (1) The non-executive members must—
	(a) appoint an executive member to be the Chief Inspector of Hospitals,
	(b) appoint an executive member to be the Chief Inspector of Adult Social Care, and
	(c) appoint an executive member to be the Chief Inspector of General Practice.
	(2) Each of those executive members is to exercise such functions of the Commission on its behalf as it determines.
	(3) When exercising functions under sub-paragraph (2), an executive member must have regard to the importance of safeguarding and promoting the Commission’s independence from the Secretary of State.””

Earl Howe: My Lords, in moving Amendment 142, I shall speak to the other government amendments in this group, Amendments 143, 145, 146, 148, 149 and 150. This group relates to the ability of the Care Quality Commission to operate free from day-to-day intervention by Ministers. The amendments that I have tabled will place the CQC on a new footing of greater operational autonomy. They also clarify some of the arrangements for the new system of ratings to be operated by the CQC. I will outline the principle guiding the Government in tabling these amendments.
	Last year we passed legislation that placed a duty on the Secretary of State to promote autonomy in the way that other bodies exercise their functions in relation to the health service. The changes that we are proposing build on this. They remove nine separate powers that the Secretary of State currently has to intervene in the day-to-day operation of the CQC. Additionally, they place the new chief inspector posts on a statutory footing, ensuring their longevity, with a specific duty to operate in a way that ensures the independence of the CQC’s judgments.
	We are also introducing a new system of regular assessments of registered providers, which has no requirement for ministerial approval of the methodology. Each of these changes gives the CQC greater scope to get on with the day job without interference from Ministers. Why does this matter? The CQC has the key role in providing assurance of the quality of services provided to patients and service users. It needs to be able to inspect what it wants when it wants and to be free to report its findings as it wants. The proposed amendments and new clauses that I have tabled will see the Government relinquish a range of powers that intervene in the operational decisions of the CQC.
	In addition to the amendments relating to the department’s powers to intervene in the work of the CQC and to place the chief inspectors on a statutory footing, I am also tabling a number of amendments relating to the performance assessment system operated by the CQC. The amendments clarify that the CQC will not undertake routine performance assessments of local authority commissioning but, rather, will be able to carry out special reviews of local authority commissioning under Section 48 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008. This will bring the position for commissioning by local authorities in line with that of NHS commissioning as put in place by the Health and Social Care Act 2012.
	I will briefly set out two areas where the CQC’s freedom is not being enhanced and explain why. The changes that we are making will give the CQC greater freedom in its day-to-day work, as I have explained. When it comes to the CQC’s strategic role and activities, outside of its routine functions, it is appropriate that the Government maintain oversight of the commission.
	The first area to which this applies is investigations of commissioning. The amendments we are making to Section 48 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 make it clear that the CQC has the power to carry out a special review or investigation of commissioning—both of health commissioning by NHS England and NHS Clinical Commissioning Groups and of local authorities’ commissioning of adult social services. Such reviews
	will only be possible with the approval of the Secretary of State for Health, in the case of NHS commissioning, and the Secretaries of State for Health and Communities and Local Government in the case of local authority commissioning.
	Secondly, I reassure noble Lords that we are maintaining the arrangements through which the commission is accountable to the Department of Health. We will retain a range of the conventional measures that exist to manage an arm’s-length body of the Government. The non-executive members of the CQC’s board will continue to be appointed by the Secretary of State, who will also maintain the power to intervene if the commission fails to properly discharge any of its functions. The department will also continue to hold the CQC to account for its financial and operational performance. I hope that these amendments will find favour with the House, and I beg to move.

Lord Warner: My Lords, I express my concern about the provisions of subsection (4) of the Government’s new clause on the independence of the CQC. My instincts are that this will do the absolute reverse of what the Government are seeking to do in terms of the CQC’s independence, which is why my Amendment 143A seeks to remove subsection (4). I do not disagree in any way with the other provisions in this set of government amendments and will explain my thinking. Subsection (4) effectively prevents the CQC investigating, of its own mere motion, the extent to which local authority commissioning practices and decisions on adult social care damage user interests and well-being.
	In effect, if the CQC considers, after looking at the results of its work on providers of services, that there is a major stumbling block to good, sound provision of services that promote the well-being of users—the provision in Clause 1 of the Bill—it has to seek the approval of the Secretary of State before it can do any kind of generalised or thematic review of local authority commissioning of services. It has to seek the approval not only of the Health Secretary but of the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. That seems a step backwards from the position we have now, where the CQC, as I understand it, could actually undertake these kinds of reviews. I do not see how the new subsection (4) helps the CQC to get to the root of a problem that may be affecting thousands of users of services. We have already seen that the providers were not the instigators of the policy of 15-minute home visits—it was the commissioners of services who instigated that policy. They required the providers to do that; they almost drove them along the path of not paying for the travel costs of the healthcare assistants who were making those visits. The institutional behaviour that has grown up and caused so much concern among the public and in Parliament has been driven by commissioners.
	I suspect that we will have other kinds of such issues as we move through a decade of austerity in public services. It ought to be possible for the CQC to take the initiative and try to get to the bottom of those issues by carrying out a thematic review of the commissioning practices. That is why we need to take out subsection (4), which seems to be incompatible
	with the rest of the provisions in this set of government amendments, which I thoroughly welcome. All credit to the Government for removing these requirements on the CQC, but why are they spoiling the ship for a ha’porth of tar? Why are we pushing back on the ability of the CQC to decide that it wants to carry out a review of commissioning practices, when that is not in the best public interest? The Government should think again about this.

Baroness Greengross: My Lords, I will speak against government Amendments 145, 146 and 149, and speak at the same time to Amendment 147 in my name.
	The government amendments would remove from the Bill a requirement for the CQC to conduct regular reviews of adult social care, as the noble Lord, Lord Warner, indicated. The Bill gives us an important opportunity to ensure that local government commissioning is effectively regulated. Last year’s EHRC homecare inquiry evidence pointed to serious concerns about some commissioning practices, which were found to put the human rights of older people in particular at risk. Accordingly, the EHRC’s recent review of the inquiry recommendations welcomed the fact that the Government had signalled their intention that the CQC should conduct regular reviews of adult social care commissioning.
	Unamended, Clause 83 would reframe Section 46 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 to empower the CQC to conduct periodic reviews of adult social care providers and English local authorities which provide or commission adult social care. It was very disappointing to see that the Government intend to remove clauses requiring the CQC to conduct these reviews through Amendments 145, 146 and 149, in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Howe. Taken together, these amendments would remove the proposed new requirements for the CQC to conduct regular performance assessments or periodic reviews of local authority social care commissioning, and amend existing provisions relating to special reviews and investigations by the CQC. That would leave it able to review providers and to ask the Secretary of State for permission to run special reviews when there has been a particular issue but unable to run ongoing reviews of how local authorities commission services. It seems counterproductive to be removing this power at the same time as committing to challenging bad commissioning from local authorities.
	The proposals announced by Norman Lamb about CQC reviews the other day are very helpful. But, again, they seem to be focused solely on providers and what they are doing, not on the commissioners who have directed these providers. If the CQC is being made independent, should it be seeking approval for such reviews? I believe that the Government have tabled this amendment because they believe that the provisions in the Health and Social Care Act 2008 will be sufficient to keep local authority adult social care commissioning under scrutiny. However, my analysis is that the human rights of people receiving care would be better protected by retaining the requirement under the Care Bill as currently drafted so that the CQC should conduct regular periodic reviews of local authorities’ commissioning of adult social care.
	If this amendment is adopted, the CQC will only be able to conduct periodic routinereviews but not of commissioners, which will leave the central element of the social care delivery system without regular independent scrutiny. Routine reviews would raise the standards of adult social care commissioning and, in my view, would result in higher quality services which better protect the human rights of care service users. In the absence of routine scrutiny, the CQC would be unable to identify thematic trends or poor commissioning by individual authorities that indicate the need for a special review or investigation.
	In summary, I am absolutely delighted that this has been recognised as a serious problem, but at the same time I am concerned that some of the Government’s amendments seem to be taking away some of the CQC’s power to act. I am not alone in this view. Leonard Cheshire Disability is worried that these amendments risk reducing the ability of the CQC to challenge poor quality commissioning. Therefore, I ask the Minister to reconsider. I leave him with a question because, from the tone of these amendments, it appears that the Government do not see a role for the CQC in improving local authority commissioning practices. If not the CQC, who does have this role?
	I turn briefly to my Amendment 147. While I fully understand that Ministers do not wish to be too prescriptive in the Bill, I feel it cannot be left entirely up to them and the contingencies of the moment. The CQC’s remit covers a wide range of care delivery settings including hospitals, care homes, dental and GP surgeries and all other care services in England. It will have a wide range of quality domains to supervise and it would be very easy to migrate the quality standards for an acute hospital into elder care where both the conditionality and capacity of the patients may be widely different. I feel that the CQC should be mandated to include indicators of the quality of services provided for the identification and treatment of those conditions that most frequently occur in a particular care setting. For older people this would include those conditions from which they are most likely to be suffering such as dementia and continence issues.
	Continence care should be established as an essential indicator of high-quality services across all care. I have declared my interests in the register—I am chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Dementia and the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Continence Care. A number of recent assessments have demonstrated that continence care remains a low priority across NHS settings, with poor treatment resulting in escalated and more costly care needs and poorer patient outcomes. Indeed, the Francis inquiry included an entire chapter outlining the scale of failures in continence care. Given the expected rise in the prevalence of incontinence and the impact that poor care can have on patients and the NHS, continence care must be seen as a key indicator of high-quality care provision across care settings. An explicit requirement within the Care Bill for the CQC to assess providers for the quality of their continence care would directly respond to the failings in continence care identified by Francis, the stated purpose behind Part 2 of the Bill. This would encourage providers to
	actively address how they manage incontinence by assessing their local protocols and policies about the condition, taking steps to improve awareness among staff about incontinence and undertaking internal audits to continuously improve care standards.

Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, I shall speak briefly against Amendments 145, 146 and 149. As the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, has just pointed out, these will take away the requirement that the CQC conduct periodic reviews of adult social care commissioning. These amendments seem perverse, coming hard on the heels of the latest care home scandal, revealed by the coroner’s finding that neglect contributed to the deaths of five residents at Orchid View care home in West Sussex.
	Last week, the Close to Home report on human rights and home care by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, concluded that some commissioning practices were likely to put at risk the human rights of older people receiving care. The Leonard Cheshire report, Ending 15-Minute Care, also points to problems with commissioning. It would therefore seem to make sense to leave Clause 83 unamended so that the CQC is empowered to oversee the practices of those commissioning adult social care and not just of those providing it.

Lord Deben: My Lords, in general terms, I support the government amendments. I am sure that my noble friend will want to answer the specific issue which the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, raised. However, I support the Government with a slight caveat. Similar parts of the localism agenda of the Government have likewise seemed to have devolved in order to encourage people to take responsibility. I agree that there is a problem of prescription—if I may use that word in the context of the health service—because we all want to add in to any freedom the particular issues about which we have a special concern. I have real sympathy with those for whom dementia is one of those issues; it certainly is for me. However, we have to guard against that because, in the end, it may produce an artificial series of priorities. In this case, it is much better for the Care Quality Commission to make its own mind up, because it is going to be responsible. I take a rather different view about the recent scandals, in that the commission has to take responsibility for the claims that have been made. If it has to take responsibility, it must have as much control over its agenda as it possibly can.
	My concern is simply that the Localism Act claimed to give localities all kinds of new controls over their futures. Yet, this week, we again find the Secretary of State for DCLG calling in a locally agreed solar decision, one supported by the local authority and by the inspector, but turned down—for reasons which are extremely difficult to see—by the centre. I want an assurance from my noble friend that this is real devolution; that the powers which have been given will not be circumvented by some other mechanism within this Bill or other Bills. The purpose of such devolution is to enhance responsibility. My concern is that, often, people who are given and who claim to have responsibility find that the structures are so prescriptive that they cannot
	take that responsibility seriously. If the amendments are an attempt to ensure that they can carry through their responsibilities in a way which enables the country to look to them to do the job they ought to be doing, that is fine and dandy. However, I hope that we can have reassurance that this is a real change, and not something that is going to be circumvented for the convenience of some Secretary of State by other bits of this or other Bills.

Baroness Barker: My Lords, I draw to the House’s attention three questions put forward by Leonard Cheshire Disability. That organisation has worked extremely hard to support the Government in their stated objective of stopping 15-minute care appointments for older people, and its questions are worth following up.
	First, why is it necessary to remove this power completely from the CQC; what will the CQC be stopped from doing by the presence of this power that otherwise it would not be? Secondly, the Government are committed to tackling poor commissioning and poor practice. If it is not going to be the role of the CQC to challenge local authorities on their commissioning practices, whose job will it be? Thirdly, is there any evidence that that power, as it exists, has been misused? Whatever one’s view about where responsibility should lie—the noble Lord, Lord Deben, made interesting points about that—those three questions are worthy of an answer when we come to formulate that view.

Baroness Pitkeathley: My Lords, I, too, am troubled by the seeming perversity of government Amendments 145, 146 and 149. The effect of the amendments seems to be to make it harder for the CQC to conduct investigations into local authority practices, particularly of commissioning. My understanding, from my hazy memory of when the CQC was set up, was that that was a particularly important function. Surely it has become more so, given the commitment to integration between services provided by the health service and those provided by local authorities. Was that not a key feature of establishing the CQC? The timing of this seems to be very odd—perverse, as the noble Lord, Lord Low, said—given the current huge concern about the way in which services are commissioned, the so-called 15-minute care visits, and so on.
	Do the Government see a continuing role for the CQC in working with local authorities to improve the way that they commission services, or is this a retreat from the way the Government view the CQC? I was very involved in the discussions before the CQC’s relaunch, and understood that to be an important part of its function. The amendments appear to reduce the CQC’s power to help improve local authority commissioning and, because of that, its oversight of care quality. That is a great concern to us all, particularly when we are so concerned about the quality of the services which are commissioned.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, first, I welcome the amendments in relation to CQC independence. I would like assurance that it does what it says on the tin. I assume that the CQC will be regarded as
	independent. Perhaps it will be making fewer visits to the Secretary of State than it does at the moment. If there are weekly meetings, as is suggested, between the Secretary of State, the CQC, Monitor and NHS England, it is very difficult to believe that it is going to be truly independent. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating; but it is very difficult to know why the Secretary of State needs to see the CQC on such a regular basis if it is really an independent organisation.
	Like other noble Lords, I am puzzled why the periodic reviews of local authority performance in commissioning adult social services have been removed from the Bill. I am surprised at the current policy, which is that, as part of wider moves to devolve responsibility for improvement in the sector, local authority commissioning performance and assessment will be led by councils. Presumably that means that it is government policy that the performance of the commissioning function of local authorities in adult social care will be reviewed by local authorities.
	With the greatest respect for the noble Earl, Lord Howe, he knows that I am a great admirer of local authorities; I have served on two. However, Like the noble Lord who spoke so eloquently earlier about solar decisions being called in by DCLG—to which, no doubt, the noble Earl will have a detailed response—I would not have thought that the commissioning performance of local authorities was thought to be so excellent that they can be left to themselves to police their performance in future.
	We debated the question of 15-minute visits and zero-hour contracts last week. I have no doubt that part of the problem is that it is local authorities that are commissioning the 15-minute visits, and that the amount of money they pay has an influence on the kind of contractual relationship that private-sector providers have with their staff. That is how zero-hour contracts come into being. Therefore, how on earth can we deal with the scandal of 15-minute visits unless we look at the way local authorities are commissioning?
	I was interested that the Care and Support Minister, Norman Lamb, was reported last week as saying that the length of home care visits could be monitored by the Care Quality Commission. He said that, with the new independence of the CQC, from next April it proposes to look at whether home-care visits are long enough to respond to people’s needs. Some independence, my Lords.
	The CQC will also consider how staff working commissions might impact on the care issues under consideration; whether the service is able to respond to people’s needs in the allocated time; whether care is delivered with compassion, dignity and respect; how many staff have zero-hour contracts; and the levels of staff turnover. This is all true; it is from Community Care. Apparently, the Minister said that the CQC will use the information to drive its regulatory activity so that it will know when, where and what to inspect, and will be alerted quickly to the risk of poor-quality care in home-care settings. I put it to the noble Earl that that is all fine, but, given that often it is local authority commissioners who are responsible for the poor quality
	of provision, surely the CQC should review and inspect the performance of local authorities. Therefore, I very much support my noble friend Lord Warner and other noble Lords on this.

Earl Howe: My Lords, I set out in my opening remarks the principle that lies behind the amendments that I tabled: namely, that the CQC should have more operational autonomy in its day-to-day activities. I sense that the principle is not inimical to many noble Lords. The amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, are in contrast to that principle and seek to tie the hands of the regulator and commit it to considering specific issues in all circumstances.
	I say straightaway that the issues raised by the noble Lords are important: namely, how providers deal with the most commonly recurring conditions in specific settings, and how hospitals are implementing NICE guidance on the use of medicines. I do not argue that the CQC should not consider these issues. It has made clear in its consultation document, A New Start, that NICE guidance will play an integral role in its new performance-assessment methodology. That shows that we can trust the regulator to set its own priorities and to change them in response to new challenges. However, I submit that they should not be in the Bill.
	Noble Lords questioned the CQC’s role in the oversight of commissioning of both health and adult social care. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, tabled an amendment that would have the effect of allowing the CQC to carry out a study of the efficiency of commissioning without seeking the approval of the Secretary of State.
	I will explain the approach that we are taking. We are maintaining powers for the CQC to carry out reviews of commissioning in both health and social care. However, where this happens, we believe that it should be a special rather than a periodic review. My noble friend Lady Barker asked why. The main role of the CQC is to inspect and regulate service provision. The very name, CQC, reflects that. Where this leads the CQC to believe that there are problems with local commissioning, it will have the power to look into this further. However, any review of commissioning will impact on the CQC’s capacity to regulate service provision. Therefore, it is only right that this should be carefully considered and subject to ministerial agreement.
	If a noble Lord were to ask me in what circumstances such agreement would be withheld, I would be in some difficulty because it is hard to imagine circumstances in which, if there were clear evidence of poor commissioning practices in an area, that agreement would not be forthcoming.
	Special reviews can be tailored in all sorts of ways. They can be tailored to look at how commissioners are delivering specific policy objectives—for example, personalisation or service integration. The special review powers could be used to target the poorest performers, conduct thematic reviews across all local authorities—and I shall mention that again in a second—or perform reviews of a cross-section of local authorities. These reviews are a sophisticated power that allows the CQC to get to the heart of an issue in a way that periodic
	reviews cannot. If there is a good case for it conducting a review of that kind, it will not be stopped from doing so.
	The noble Lord, Lord Warner, questioned the whole principle of ministerial sign-off for these special reviews. In fact, all special reviews and investigations by the CQC under Section 48 of the 2008 Act currently require the approval of the Secretary of State, so, in that sense, we are not doing anything radically new.
	As I said, the CQC will be able to carry out a special review of commissioning where there is evidence that commissioning practices are contributing to the provision of poor care for patients and service users. A prime example of where the CQC could be tasked to conduct an investigation would be if it had evidence that 15-minute commissioning was taking place. That applies to any area where poor commissioning is identified as a contributory factor to the poor provision of care, either in terms of the quality of services or where access to services is raised as an issue by people who use them. I hope that that is reassuring. We are absolutely clear that the CQC will play a leading role in making sure that people receive acceptable standards of care. Indeed, only last week we announced that the CQC was considering the use of 15-minute care visits to vulnerable and elderly people. That is entirely appropriate and I emphasise that it will still have the power to carry out special reviews of that kind.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, went further and said that it was counterproductive to remove the periodic review power for commissioning. She referred to statements about this made by my honourable friend, Norman Lamb, the Minister for Care and Support. I would simply say to her that retaining Section 46 functions—the periodic review functions—would offer the CQC nothing further in terms of enforcement powers against local authorities. Regardless of whether a review is undertaken under Section 46 or Section 48 in relation to an English local authority, the follow-up action remains exactly the same, with the CQC able to issue an improvement notice in the event of a local authority failing to discharge its functions and to recommend special measures to the Secretary of State in the event of substantial failings.
	Our approach will allow the CQC to focus its efforts on those areas where there are concerns about commissioning, rather than on all commissioning, including commissioning where the normal oversight arrangements have revealed no overt problems. I should now like to come to those oversight arrangements, because the noble Baroness asked me who is responsible for the oversight of commissioners if it is not the CQC. We need to remember that commissioners are already regularly overseen, in a number of ways, in the new system. In the case of the commissioning of health services, the new NHS architecture has NHS England taking the central role in performance-managing the commissioning of NHS services. It ensures that clinical commissioning groups deliver the best possible services and outcomes for patients. The CCG assurance framework has been developed precisely to ensure that the CCGs are working to improve services and the quality of care for patients.
	This new system is also more transparent. The CCG outcomes indicator set will support CCGs and health and well-being partners in improving health outcomes by providing comparative information on the quality of health services commissioned by CCGs and the associated health outcomes, and it will support transparency and accountability by making this information available to patients and the public. That is new. The first quarterly assurance conversations have now taken place between NHS England and CCGs. We expect that CCGs will want to make the outcome of these conversations available publicly as part of the commitment to transparency. The board will publish an annual assessment at the end of 2013-14, as required by legislation.
	In addition, NHS England has its own governance processes in place, including the development of the direct commissioning assurance framework to demonstrate that it meets the standards required. As this is developed further, elements will be introduced to bring external scrutiny to its board and function. Ultimately, NHS England is held to account by the Department of Health for its commissioning activity against its delivery of the priorities set in the mandate.
	That does not mean that there is no independent scrutiny of NHS commissioning. Health and well-being boards and local Healthwatch will ensure that the public voice is heard where there are concerns about the design and commissioning of services. Where local Healthwatch identifies concerns, it can raise these with Healthwatch England, which can in turn request the CQC to take action. Where the CQC has strong concerns that commissioning is having an impact on the quality and safety of provision, it can initiate—with ministerial permission—a special review or investigation. This is a much richer tapestry than perhaps some noble Lords have portrayed it.
	On local authority commissioning, other measures in the Bill will strengthen the duties on local authorities in exercising their care and support functions. These include a new express duty to promote people’s well-being and a duty to shape local care markets to ensure that they are sustainable and diverse and that they offer high-quality care and support. They will not, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, fears, be left to themselves. To start with, the department will work with the local government and adult social care sector to produce statutory guidance on local authority commissioning of care and support. As well as this, the Government are committed to ensuring that there is a clear link between local authority commissioning and the outcomes and experiences of service users. That will be achieved through the adult social care outcomes framework, which will give local people, local Healthwatch and others robust and comparable information on councils’ performance. The Government are committed to making information on adult social care outcomes even more accessible and readily understood by people who use care and the wider public further to enhance transparency.
	As with NHS commissioning, local Healthwatch and health and well-being boards will be able, through Healthwatch England, to raise concerns with the CQC about poor commissioning. This is independent, regular scrutiny that will be driven by the views of those with
	direct experience of service failings—the service users themselves. Although this system is in its early stages, I genuinely believe that the mechanics are in place to ensure that local authority commissioning is scrutinised regularly and in a way that it has not been before.
	My noble friend Lord Deben referred to the Localism Bill and wanted assurance that the powers given to the CQC will not be circumvented in various ways. I can assure my noble friend that it is not our intention that the powers given to the CQC will be circumvented by other legislative proposals or any other means.
	My noble friend Lady Barker asked why we are stopping the CQC doing what it does now, and whether there is any evidence that the power has been misused. As I am sure my noble friend will agree, the CQC plays a very important role in regulating and inspecting health and care services. It is the nation’s chief whistleblower on health, but to do its job properly it must be able to act without fear or favour from the Government of the day. In a nutshell, we want to make it a stronger organisation by ensuring that it has the freedom and independence always to speak out about patient safety concerns, irrespective of who is in Government. The removal of the need for the CQC to gain the approval of the Secretary of State for its programme of inspections and so on will particularly complement the role of the CQC’s new chief inspectors in providing an authoritative and independent judgment of the quality of health and social care services.
	I would say to the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, that the main objective for the CQC, as set out in the 2008 Act, is centred on service provision. The objective is to protect and promote the health, safety and welfare of people who use services. It will do this, as it does at the moment, through looking at service provision and it will look at local authority commissioning when there is evidence of problems.
	Finally, I turn to the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about the regular interaction between the CQC and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. I hope he will bear in mind that the Department of Health and the Secretary of State act as system stewards, overseeing the work of the CQC and other arm’s-length bodies. It is essential as the regulator of providers that the CQC is independent in its judgments. That is not to say that Ministers and the department should not keep a regular watching brief over what is—he will acknowledge—a very active scene out there, not least in the area of the quality of care delivered by certain hospitals.
	Having taken a little time over this, I hope that I have reassured noble Lords not only about the merits of our amendments but that their own fears about what we are asking the CQC to concentrate on are misplaced.
	Amendment 142 agreed.
	Amendment 143
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	143: After Clause 82, insert the following new Clause—
	“Independence of the Care Quality Commission
	(1) Part 1 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 (the Care Quality Commission) is amended as follows.
	(2) In section 48 (special reviews or investigations), omit subsection (7) (Secretary of State’s power to make regulations as to procedure for representations before publication of report).
	(3) In section 54 (studies as to economy, efficiency etc), in subsections (1) and (3), omit “, with the approval of the Secretary of State,”.
	(4) After subsection (2) of that section, insert—
	“(2A) The Commission may not exercise the power under subsection (1)(a), so far as it relates to the activity mentioned in subsection (2)(d), without the approval of the Secretary of State.”
	(5) In section 55 (publication of results of studies under section 54), omit subsection (2) (Secretary of State’s power to make regulations as to procedure for representations before publication of report).
	(6) In section 57 (reviews of data, studies and research), in subsection (1), omit “, with the approval of the Secretary of State,”.
	(7) In section 61 (inspections carried out for registration purposes), omit—
	(a) subsection (1) (Secretary of State’s power to make regulations specifying frequency etc. of inspections), and
	(b) subsection (4) (Secretary of State’s power to make regulations as to procedure for representations before publication of report).
	(8) In section 83 (annual reports), omit subsection (3) (Secretary of State’s power to direct preparation of separate reports).
	(9) In paragraph 5 of Schedule 4 (inspection programmes etc.), omit—
	(a) in sub-paragraph (1) (preparation of programme etc.), “, or at such times as the Secretary of State may specify by order,”, and
	(b) sub-paragraph (3) (Secretary of State’s power to specify form of programme etc.).
	(10) In consequence of subsections (3) and (6), omit section 293(3) and (4) of the Health and Social Care Act 2012.”
	Amendment 143A (to Amendment 143)
	 Moved by Lord Warner
	143A: After Clause 82, line 10, leave out subsection (4)

Lord Warner: My Lords, I listened carefully to the points made in this debate, particularly those made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I find this brave new world that we are moving into—of which he painted such an attractive picture—a bit puzzling. In the previous debate on the trust special administrator, we heard that the trust special administrator comes into play when this wonderful piece of architecture around commissioning has failed to deal with the job. The CCGs, supervised by NHS England, have simply not been able to deliver the changes that are required through the commissioning arrangements. In that area, the fall-back position which the Government insist that we have, is a trust special administrator, often to make good the deficiencies of an unsatisfactory commissioning set-up. The Government do not seem to have quite as much confidence in their new architecture for commissioning as the noble Earl suggested.
	I turn to my amendment, which in effect maintains the status quo and the ability of the CQC to decide, in the light of the evidence it has had from its reviews of performance by providers, that there is a systemic problem with commissioning, the making of arrangements for adult social services. It seems odd that we should
	just leave this, in effect, to all 152 local authorities and put in place another hurdle to be got over, which is the approval of two Secretaries of State, before the CQC can actually act in the area of commissioning. We have to bear in mind that in the good old days, when I was a director of social services in local government, I had to look over my shoulder at the Audit Commission as to how we were behaving and making our arrangements. The Audit Commission, however, has gone the way of all flesh, so that is the end of another watchdog that was there to make sure, without being too obtrusive, that there could be thematic reviews of the way local authorities carried out their commissioning behaviour. I do not think that this architecture is robust enough to safeguard patients, and I wish to test the opinion of the House.

Division on Amendment 143A
	Contents 194; Not-Contents 220.
	Amendment 143A disagreed.

Amendment 143 agreed.
	Amendment 144
	 Moved by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
	144: After Clause 82, insert the following new Clause—
	“Staffing numbers and skills mix
	The Care Quality Commission shall, in carrying out its functions, have regard to any official guidance on staffing numbers and skills mix.”

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, we come to an important amendment that relates essentially to staff ratios and guidance. I refer back to the Francis report, which focused very much, among many other serious matters, on staffing ratios and appropriate staffing numbers employed by NHS trusts.
	We know very well that given the financial strain currently on the health service there is a large concern about whether there are enough staff on the wards to give appropriate care. Much of the concern around the quality of nursing care and the quality of care by healthcare assistants has related to essential aspects of care, including feeding, caring and all those things associated with what we would regard as appropriate caring. Underlining those things has been a concern as to whether enough staff are employed on the wards.
	The noble Earl will know that the Francis report recommended that NICE should benchmark issues around appropriate staffing levels. He will also know that since the Francis report came out we have had the Keogh report into 14 trusts with outline mortality rates. It is interesting that one of the important conclusions of the Keogh review was the need to look seriously at staffing numbers. There seems to be a direct relationship between outline mortality rates and staffing levels on the wards and in clinical areas. We have also had the Berwick review, which the Government established, looking more generally at staffing levels within the health service. The review identified staffing levels as being one of the most important areas on which to focus when it comes to reviewing quality of care.
	My amendment relates to ensuring that in its responsibilities the CQC has sufficient focus on staffing levels. This is a very important matter at a time when the health service is being presented with an increase in the number of patients and an increase in technology and complexity at the same time as having to operate on a budget that is just above a level budget. Things
	are very difficult indeed in the health service. Roughly 70% of the budget of NHS organisations is spent on staffing and expenditure on nursing and healthcare assistants forms perhaps the most important element of the staffing budget. Therefore, in some way we need to protect staffing levels in such circumstances. My amendment suggests that this is a very important role for the CQC to play and I hope that the Minister will be sympathetic to it. I beg to move.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I do not want to speak before whoever supports the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in his amendment, so I will sit down and speak after the noble Baroness.

Baroness Wall of New Barnet: My Lords, I did not intend for that to happen. Noble Lords may find this quite tedious, but I want to follow both the theme and the specifics of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. As to the theme, his statement that things are difficult out there today is quite an understatement. Things are hugely difficult. I spent the morning with the TDA in my trust and heard very difficult messages around performance and, more importantly, around finance.
	On the specific point about the suggested skill mix and the way of dealing with it in the Care Quality Commission, when we had our Care Quality Commission representative for Barnet and Chase Farm with us a couple of months ago—on a routine visit rather than an impromptu one—she set aside a session to talk to people about healthcare assistants. She got the same message that I have tried to impart to noble Lords on several occasions that the regulation of these people is hugely important. She was trying to understand what difference it would make. Patients who came in to listen at the event could not understand why healthcare assistants were not regulated in that way—although some thought that they were. There is also confusion about who they are and what role they play.
	Healthcare assistants and nursing assistants are hugely important to the skill mix, but what they do and what they are able to do is paramount to being able to understand how their contribution to the skill mix really fits. I support the amendment. It can ensure that we once and for all deal with what it really means to be a healthcare assistant, what they can do and how they are regulated.

Baroness Emerton: My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 159 standing in my name and in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Willis and Lord Warner, and of my noble friend Lord Patel. Amendment 159 is about safeguarding patients. I championed safe staffing levels during the proceedings on the Health and Social Care Bill and during the proceedings on the Care Bill to date but failed to get my amendments accepted following a firm rebuttal by the Minister. Therefore, it was with a slightly doubtful mind that on 29 July, before we left for the Summer Recess, I put my name to the amendment before us today.
	I then began nine weeks of reflection on whether I should or should not withdraw my name. I want to share the experiences of those nine weeks that have
	left my name on the amendment. I resolved to try to convince the Minister and noble Lords that if we wish to meet the challenges of high-quality, safe care acceptable to patients and their families in hospitals, we cannot ignore the contents of this amendment, set out under four headings. It recognises that it is only a small part of a very comprehensive Bill focusing on the acute hospital provider but it is nevertheless important that patients should be assured that all the measures that are taken will ensure their safety and the high quality of delivery of care to their satisfaction, resulting in a short length of stay, less likelihood of infection, reduced readmission rates and lower mortality rates.
	Surely there is a cost-effective and care-effective way forward, despite the challenges it brings with it. The need to consider staffing levels in the community is equally important if we are to achieve an integrated service from primary healthcare and community care as well as from the acute providers in hospitals. Before the Recess I was involved in discussions about staffing levels with a number of very senior nurses, academics, the Royal College of Nursing and other organisations. The Bruce Keogh report focused on the seriousness of the situation, identifying 14 hospitals with high mortality rates and low staffing levels. That was quickly followed by the publication of the report by Professor Don Berwick, also just mentioned, on the safety of patients, which again referred to low levels of nursing staff as being a problem, but not measured against an evidence-based level.
	The group of senior nurses formed themselves into the Safe Staffing Alliance, chaired by Elizabeth Robb, the chief executive of the Florence Nightingale Foundation, who had personally experienced introducing care bundles for five long-term conditions, which led to a dramatic reduction in mortality rates, and who was a member of the Keogh commission. The alliance busily engaged itself in examining the research evidence available internationally, and within the UK, on staffing levels. Its statement says:
	“Under no circumstances is it safe to care for patients in need of hospital treatment with a ratio of more than 8 patients per registered nurse during the day time on general acute wards including those specialising in care for older people”.
	Very soon after that, Robert Francis spoke to the CQC and referred to his original recommendation on staffing levels. He said, “So much of what went wrong in our hospitals is likely and indeed was in many regards the case in Stafford, due to there being inadequate numbers of staff either in terms of numbers or skills. The evidence given to my inquiry however was not sufficient to persuade me that there should be a minimum across the board staffing level, and I know not everyone agrees with that conclusion. But I could only act on the evidence I had and I was after all only dealing with the event arising out of a particular hospital so the inquiry for all the breadth in the end had limitations. However, evidence has been put forward to me since from the Safe Staffing Alliance to suggest there is a level below which it should be regarded a service is not safe, not that’s the adequate level of staffing but the level below which you cannot be safe. It does seem to me that it’s evidence that is worth consideration and therefore ought to be considered somewhere with regard
	to whether there is some sort of benchmark which at least is a bit like mortality rates an alarm bell which should require at least questions to be asked about whether it is possible for a service to be safe given whatever the staffing situation is. I just ask you to consider that as being a potential way to show real support for staff, some of whom are working in really challenging circumstances”.
	In an interview reported in the press on 8 October, Robert Francis discussed the possibility of services being shut down if insufficient staffing levels were evident.
	During September, I met directors of nursing from the teaching hospitals called the Shelford Group, who were grappling with staffing problems but in slightly different circumstances from those in other NHS trusts and NHS foundation trusts. I also discussed the issue with the director of nursing at Salford Royal NHS Foundation Trust, Elaine Inglesby, who gave evidence to the Health Select Committee that demonstrated clearly that the whole hospital was engaged in the safe staffing project. She had been able to implement the suggested staffing levels by using the acuity and dependency tools supplied by the Association of UK University Hospitals and using the ratio of one registered nurse to eight patients as a minimum, based on the evidence from Southampton University, King’s College London and the National Nursing Research Unit. Evidence suggested that there was a need for three registered nurses on night duty.
	In this hospital there is a safe staffing steering group to support ongoing development. The introduction of a white board on every ward or department indicates the number of nurses and grades on each shift. This is posted so the patients and visitors can immediately identify how many staff at what grade are on duty at any time. There is a daily safe staffing teleconference on daily rotas meeting each morning at 8.30. This looks at the morning, late and night shift and presents a true picture of ward and department nurse staffing. Obviously this is an ongoing development project involving the board members and the staff of the whole hospital. To date it is working to the satisfaction of patients, families and, above all, the staff involved.
	During this time, I also noted the media and varying reports of events demonstrating failings in service delivery because of low staffing levels, including the reports of warning signs from the Royal College of Nursing and other organisations. I also listened to patients’ experiences, where shortage of staff appeared to be a major concern. The need for so many trusts to seek overseas recruits because of shortage was reported last week. There are also records from the Patients Association, which has received many complaints on staff shortages during this time.
	I then went on holiday myself and reflected back over the eight weeks. I came to the conclusion, while declaring that I am a long-retired nurse not on the NMC register, that I could do nothing but support the amendment and continue campaigning for the future safety of patients. I hope I have persuaded the Minister. Although this amendment is only a very small part of this large Bill, because of the ramifications for the safety of patients in hospitals who rely on 80% of their
	care being given by nurses, we owe it to the nurses and to the patients they serve at least to acknowledge and accept the words of the amendment so framed to allow the flexibility required to meet patient need but avoid high risk to the delivery of care. I trust the Minister will respond accordingly to the amendment.

Lord Willis of Knaresborough: My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton. May I say—not as an aside but as genuine comment—that we are all in awe of her commitment to nursing and the care profession? It is not just eight weeks, but a lifetime of commitment. I think the whole House is enormously grateful for the contribution she makes.
	I rise to support Amendment 144 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, having first thought that it was not required. It seems fairly obvious that the Care Quality Commission shall, in carrying out its functions,
	“have regard to any official guidance on staffing numbers and skills mix”.
	The idea that any inspector or regulator would look at the guidance and then apply that as criteria would seem an absolutely normal process. Yet on reflection, having read the Francis report and the Winterbourne View report, one suddenly realises that, certainly from 2009 but far back in time as well, the department under successive Governments has offered guidance about safe staffing levels. It has done that in everything, but particularly in acute settings, I appreciate that. The fact that that was not taken into consideration makes the noble Lord’s amendment absolutely appropriate. I cannot see for the life of me why my noble friend would not accept it as a very sensible addition for making sure that the CQC, when it carries out inspections, takes that into consideration.
	I would like to spend a little more time on Amendment 159, which has been so superbly introduced by the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton. Amendment 159 covers a lot of the same ground but goes further in spelling out the direct link between staffing and patient safety. It is important for my noble friend to understand what it does not do; nobody on either side of the House has sought to impose statutory staffing limits in legislation. That would be counterproductive in getting the sorts of outcomes that we want.
	I prefer, as I am sure colleagues on all sides of the House do, to have strong statutory guidance with good inspection, which is what we have had in the past. The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, does this—it completes the circle. I am very concerned that this House and the department spend too little time addressing the question of safe staffing. What does that actually mean? I declare an interest as an honorary fellow of the Royal College of Nursing. The RCN associates safe staffing with nursing because nurses, together with healthcare assistants under their supervision, do most of the care. But safe staffing is about the total product, not simply about nursing. It is also about the ward managers and everything else that goes into ensuring that when patients go into any setting, whether it is domiciliary, a care home or an acute hospital, there is an appropriate level of staffing.
	When I was writing the Willis Commission report last year, one of the things that came up over and over again was a demand for mandatory staffing levels. I spent some time looking at the literature on safe staffing levels to see whether there was a correlation between having the right number of staff—registered nurses, care assistants, doctors or consultants—and outcomes. Frankly, it is very difficult to find empirical evidence to support it one way or another, simply because nobody in the healthcare system works in isolation from their colleagues. You are only as good as the team that works around you and their skills and training mix. I looked up what was happening in California where for more than 10 years they have had mandatory staffing levels for registered nurses. No other state has followed that. In April Senator Barbara Boxer introduced a Bill in the Senate to try to establish a federal system of ensuring that all hospitals had particular staff levels but nobody has followed that through.
	There is some research being done in the UK, such as Anne Marie Rafferty’s 2007 study, with which Members are familiar. It was a really good piece of work which showed a 26% higher mortality rate in the cases of very high patient to nursing ratios. Kane’s meta-analysis in 2007 of all the literature indicated an emerging consensus that there are particular staffing levels beyond which the situation becomes dangerous. It is an issue for the department to constantly keep that under review. The amendment does not go over that ground but makes it clear in terms of safe staffing that there would be a duty on the provider, such as the hospital or the care home or those providing domiciliary care, to ensure that staff levels were appropriate and that staff competence is such to carry out safe care. After all, there is nobody in this House who does not want to see safe staffing within all NHS and other providers of health and care. That seems to be a basic starting point for a high-quality health and care system. We need to be able to ensure that that is the case. You will only find out what safe staffing levels are in a particular scenario and setting if you monitor them. That is why there is a requirement in the amendment to report on it. We are not talking about a report every three or five years, but there should be a continuous report so that when the CQC goes into a setting, it can look at the correlation between safe staffing levels, acuity and mortality rates and other factors, to see whether outcomes are dependent on particular mixes of staff.
	Nor is the amendment saying that there should be annual reports. The Secretary of State would decide how often the department should be able to look at those reports. In essence, however, we are trying to establish that ensuring that the staffing mix is appropriate to the setting and to the patients who are being cared for is fundamental to healthcare. I hope that the Minister can give us some serious comfort on that. If we can get that right, we will have a good healthcare system.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, I am of course impressed by what has been said by the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, who always knows so much about this subject. We have benefited from her great expertise over time. I am also interested in what
	the noble Lord, Lord Willis, has just said on the same amendment; he cited Amendment 159 but I thought it was Amendment 158.

Lord Willis of Knaresborough: It was Amendment 159.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes: I leave it to the department to work out whether it was Amendment 158 or 159, but that is not too important.
	In many ways Amendment 144 does not go far enough. I am sure that the point of the noble Lord, Lord Willis—that the Care Quality Commission should be capable of thinking of these things for itself in any case—is right. However, the phrase “the skills mix” concerns me. There can be huge differences in the skills mix. I was concerned that the Chelsea and Westminster Hospital, having waited for perhaps as long as 10 years, at last got a specialist nurse for neurological conditions. The hospital was delighted because it had had huge demand for such a service. I am a great supporter of specialist nurse services.
	The Royal Free then came along and poached that nurse from the Chelsea and Westminster, which then looked at what it could do. I was informed by word of mouth that there was no question or even thought of a replacement because there was a long list, and it was a case of “the first cab on the rank” as to who was deemed to be most needed. It could have been an ordinary nurse, it could have been a surgical nurse or anyone. You moved on and did not replace the person with the skills that you needed and wanted. You had to replace your missing person with whatever the next thing on the waiting list was. That seemed to be a serious cause for concern.
	It is essential to know what skills mix is needed. The amendment mentions “official guidance”. It would have to go much wider than official guidance. It has to be attributable to the particular hospital or service that is involved. Although the amendment covers many of the important points, it does not cover the need for every facility to have cover within that department and not to then find that they have lost it because someone left—they could have gone off on maternity leave, they could have left for any reason, but in this instance they were poached by another NHS hospital.
	Whatever the answer, it is important. The relationship between the staffing levels is hard to assess and has to be individually done. The Care Quality Commission should be capable of having an indication of what it should be looking at, and needs to be aware of all these problems. Of course, not one of us could oppose having enough staff on the wards, which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said was necessary. However, we are now faced with positions where budgets are limited and they have to look at and work out what they need most. I do not agree at all that it should be just a progression from whoever has been waiting the longest; it should be whatever the hospital, or a particular department, needs the most. Although I support the principle, perhaps it needs more than this. I am hoping that the Minister will be able to assure us that he can incorporate some words within those he already has to make it clear that there must be this obligation. I strongly support Amendment 144 and I am open to conviction about Amendment 158 or 159.

Lord Warner: My Lords, I support both the amendments. They are not alternatives but complementary. I want to start briefly from where we are. The issue of staffing numbers, ratios and skill mixes is just a black box as far as the public are concerned. It is something that goes on within the NHS. This has some relationship to our earlier debate about failure. It is often very difficult for outsiders—and I include regulators as outsiders—to understand what is going on in institutions, particularly acute hospitals. This issue is not peculiar to hospitals; it is even more of an issue for community services, in some ways.
	I would like briefly to share my experience as the chairman of the provider agency in London. If your Lordships think that things are bad in some hospital services, try the community services. When we started to poke around in the community services, we found huge variations in the staffing levels for populations with particular conditions. There were massive variations in the face time that clinical staff spent with their patients. We have issues in community services which are often probably more dangerous and less reassuring than we have in some of our hospitals. If we are to have such amendments to the Bill, it is clear that they must relate not just to acute hospital services.
	We are not going to get public understanding about when hospitals are failing or unsustainable without a better sense of public education about what a safe level of staffing is to give the reassurance that you are going into a facility which is safe. I added my name to Amendment 159 because it opens up the issue of putting into the public arena some data and reassurance about what a safe level of staffing is for some of these services. It can then be prayed in aid by both commissioners and providers when there are issues about whether a unit is sustainable. We often talk about unsustainability as a financial issue, but it is often about staffing issues—the sheer inability to get a safe group of staff together to run the institution. One acid test of why a place is unsafe is the number of bank or agency staff in a unit, who come and go at ever-increasing frequencies. Public understanding of what is going on in these hospitals seems critical to public reassurance.
	Nobody wants to put staff numbers into the Bill, but we need something better than we have now to give the public some idea about the staffing levels and skill mix in what are, at the end of the day, relatively closed institutions. It is difficult for the public to understand what is and is not safe without more data, and that would make it much easier to hold boards to account. Amendment 159 would make it clear that the boards of trusts need to come back continually to what they are providing to the public in the safety of their staffing levels. Amendments 144 and 159 certainly do no damage to the Bill. They strengthen it and it is much more in the interests of the public to have this data available locally, as the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, has said, relating to specific establishments and institutions.

Lord MacKenzie of Culkein: My Lords, I also support both amendments. It seems to me, as a nurse, to be a self-evident proposition that having safe staffing
	levels and the correct skill mix, taking into account dependency and acuity, is the right thing do. Anyone who has listened to the debates in this House on various Bills dealing with health and social care over the past few months knows that it is an enormously complicated issue. However, we must bring it back to this level of patient safety and the duty of providers to provide safe staffing levels and the correct skill mix. If that is not done, all the other things we talk about will be in vain and we will end up with more reports, more inquiries and more problems.
	As has already been said, it is incumbent on Governments to take account of all these things: the Francis report, the review into Winterbourne View and some of the recommendations in the excellent report produced a few months ago by the noble Lord, Lord Willis. It is vital that we get this right. At a time when financial pressures will force authorities to look at diluting the numbers of trained nursing staff and trained staff in the community and replacing them with healthcare assistants or support workers with hugely varied levels of training and experience, it is absolutely right that we get the correct level. As has already been said, both of these amendments can only add to the Bill and take nothing away from it.

Earl Howe: My Lords, I hope that I can give noble Lords considerable reassurance on the Government’s position on these important issues. It is almost axiomatic that safe, high-quality care is dependent on people and that right-staffing, in terms of numbers and skills, is vital for good care. The importance of having the right staff with the right skills and in the right numbers is central to the delivery of high-quality care. Where staff are stretched because they are too few in number, corners will be cut, with inevitable adverse consequences for patient care. Equally, where staff do not have the right skills to carry out their tasks, the quality of care will suffer.
	Patient safety is the first priority, and safe staffing levels really matter. The quality of care provided to patients is ultimately the responsibility of the leadership of provider organisations. It is their responsibility to ensure that they have the right staff with the right skills in the right place at the right time in order to provide high-quality care. In the final analysis, it is for hospitals themselves to decide how many nurses they employ, and they are the best placed to do that. Nursing leaders have been clear that hospitals should determine and publish staffing details and the evidence to show that staff numbers are right for the care needs of the patients that they look after.
	Although local providers are best placed to do this based on local need, we expect them to look to authoritative guidance and evidence-based tools and learn from best practice to deliver cost-effective and safe care. We recognise that there is a need for national action to ensure that local organisations meet those expectations. As a result of the national nursing and midwifery strategy and vision published in 2012, Compassion in Practice, a considerable amount of work is going on across England to ensure that providers use evidence-based tools, using acuity and dependency measures to set staffing levels, and for boards to publish these staffing levels on a regular basis.
	I want to explain what we are now doing to build on that work. First, the Chief Nursing Officer, supported by the National Quality Board, is developing guidance for the system, including a set of expectations, to support provider organisations in securing the appropriate staffing capacity and capability for nursing, midwifery and care. This guidance is being developed with the intention of ensuring safe patient care and that patient outcomes are not compromised. It will include expectations on transparency and publication of information on staffing.
	This guidance is being developed jointly by the statutory organisations responsible for quality across the NHS, which are brought together as part of the National Quality Board and which include the Care Quality Commission, Monitor, the NHS Trust Development Authority and NHS England. It will be published next month. I can therefore only agree with the intention behind the amendment that providers need to be open and transparent about their staffing numbers. The positive news is that action is already in place to ensure that this happens.

Lord Willis of Knaresborough: What my noble friend has said is incredibly encouraging. However, before he leaves that point, could he take up the very important issue raised by the noble Lord, Lord Warner? This is not just about hospitals; it is also—particularly in my case—about care homes and other community settings. Will the regulations apply to all those settings, so that we get continuity throughout the system?

Earl Howe: My Lords, I am happy to come to that point. The short answer is that that is certainly our intention.
	I turn to Amendment 159, about which I will be a little critical. We consider that requiring health or care service providers to,
	“publish a report containing staffing levels based on evidence of safe staffing levels supported by acuity and dependency levels for each patient”,
	is really not a viable alternative to what we are already putting in place and would not work in practice. It would be burdensome to implement in precisely that form and could detract from the ability of staff to deliver good clinical care.
	I understand, of course, the thrust of the thought behind the first part of the amendment, which says that,
	“the first duty that a health or care service provider must consider for any decision is patient safety”,
	However, it carries the risk of unintended consequences. It could lead to other important factors, such as innovation and service improvement, not being given sufficient weight and providers becoming unduly risk averse. We need to reflect that any innovative treatment—which we want to encourage in the health service—carries some risk. That is always justified by benefits for the wider system. We do not want clinicians to become reluctant to take risks if this amendment were passed.
	Also, we do not feel that specifying report requirements for provider boards is the role of the Secretary of State any more. Rather, the focus has to be to allow for local accountability and local decision-making. However, as I have said, we recognise that decision-making tools are needed and I agree with my noble friend Lord
	Willis about that. We are working with the CQC, NICE and others to ensure that providers have the evidence-based tools they need to make decisions to secure safe staffing levels. These decisions will then be subject to external scrutiny and challenge by commissioners, regulators and the public, and to inspection by the Chief Inspector of Hospitals.
	However, at the end of the day we come back to the fundamental point, that it is the responsibility of individual providers to be accountable for staffing levels in their organisations. The existing registration requirements, which are enforced and monitored by the CQC, already recognise the importance of that. That is my response to Amendment 144. The requirements state that providers must take steps to ensure that at all times there are sufficient numbers of suitable staff to carry on the regulated activities that the organisation provides. Additionally, the Chief Inspector of Hospitals has also made it clear that appropriate staffing levels are part of the requirements of registration for the CQC.
	In assessing whether a provider meets the registration requirement on staffing, the CQC refers to relevant guidance about staffing levels and skills mix published by professional councils and relevant expert and professional bodies. These include the Department of Health, Skills for Care, Skills for Health, the NHS and the Royal College of Nursing. Where a provider does not meet the staffing registration requirement, the CQC is able to use its enforcement powers to protect patients and service users from the risks of unsafe care associated with inadequate and/or poorly trained staff.
	In its consultation document A New Start, published in June this year, the CQC stated that the focus of its new inspection methodology would be on five key domains. Are services safe, effective, caring, responsive to people’s needs, and well led? These domains will cut across all areas of activity, including levels of staffing and skill mix.

Baroness Emerton: My Lords, on what evidence would the CQC base the answers to those questions?

Lord Warner: How easy will it be for members of the public to see this material when they are trying to be sure that they are going to a safe place?

Earl Howe: The answer to that question is the rating system, which the chief inspectors are planning to bring in. Proposals for that will be announced very shortly. We attach great importance to that kind of transparency, not only in the NHS but in the care sector. On my noble friend’s question about whether all this would cover the care sector as well as the NHS, as he will know, the CQC issues sector-specific guidance on how to meet staffing registration requirements. Obviously NHS England would only provide guidance that relates to the NHS. As I already said, the Chief Inspector of, say, Adult Social Care would inspect regularly against CQC guidance. The plan is to consult in April 2014 on the CQC guidance on social care.
	My noble friend spoke about an emerging consensus on a minimum level of staffing below which care is unsafe. I understand his point, but I am sure he will
	acknowledge—and did, implicitly, in his remarks—that staffing is not simply about crude numbers; it is not just about nurses. Healthcare assistants and other members of the team all have a key role to play. My noble friend Lady Gardner was absolutely right to point out that the skill mix is relevant in these circumstances. Patient safety experts agree that safe staffing levels should be set locally. It is not for Whitehall to set one-size-fits-all staffing rules. That is exactly why we have asked NICE and other nursing experts to review the evidence, to help organisations to make the right decisions on staff numbers at a local level and then, essentially, to govern themselves. I make it absolutely clear that we fully agree that safe staffing should apply in all settings and that point will be taken into account as we develop our plans.
	I hope noble Lords are reassured that action is already being undertaken in a combination of ways, through Compassion in Practice, the CQC registration process, and, shortly, through the role of the Chief Inspector of Hospitals. That will ensure that providers are open and transparent about their staffing numbers and that they assess these staffing levels, not just on the day of an inspection but on a regular basis, using evidence-based tools, and by taking into account local factors that relate to local patient needs and outcomes. I therefore hope that noble Lords will be content to take stock of what I have said and will not press their amendments.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. I will say at once that I very much support Amendment 159. I agree with my noble friend Lord Warner that the two amendments run in parallel very well indeed.
	I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner, thinks that my amendment may be a little too modest. Perhaps it is a start. I assume that the noble Baroness was not chair of the Royal Free when the “poaching” that she described took place. The point was well made.
	The noble Earl, Lord Howe, has listed a number of ways in which we could be assured that staffing numbers and skill mix will be okay both in the NHS and the care sector. The fact is that, however much information is published and however much this might be part of the licensing regime of CQC, these organisations have been around for some time. There is consistent evidence that staffing levels are not sufficient. We have already had the Francis report, which said that NICE should undertake benchmarking on staffing levels. The Keogh report on the 14 hospital trusts said:
	“The review teams found inadequate numbers of nursing staff in a number of ward areas, particularly out of hours—at night and at the weekend. This was compounded by an over-reliance on unregistered support staff and temporary staff”.
	The Berwick report goes over the same ground. At the end of the day, I do not think there is enough beef in the system to ensure that we have adequate support staff. If NICE is going to carry out the benchmarking, which is a very good thing, we need to make sure that the regulator actually has some beef in terms of ensuring that we get adequate staff levels in clinical areas. I think that my Amendment 144 ensures that that will happen. I should like to test the opinion of the House.

Division on Amendment 144
	Contents 194; Not-Contents 204.
	Amendment 144 disagreed.

Clause 83: Reviews and performance assessments
	Amendments 145 and 146
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	145: Clause 83, page 72, leave out lines 16 to 27
	146: Clause 83, page 72, line 28, leave out “or local authority”
	Amendments 145 and 146 agreed.
	Amendments 147 and 147A not moved.
	Amendments 148 to 150
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	148: Clause 83, page 73, line 14, at end insert—
	“(13) Consultation undertaken before the commencement of this section is as effective for the purposes of subsection (9) as consultation undertaken after that commencement.”
	149: Clause 83, page 73, line 16, at end insert—
	“( ) In section 48 (special reviews and investigations), in subsection (1)—
	(a) omit “, with the approval of the Secretary of State,”, and
	(b) at the end insert “; but the Commission may not conduct a review or investigation under subsection (2)(ba) or (bb) without the approval of the Secretary of State.”
	( ) Omit subsection (1A) of that section.
	( ) In subsection (2) of that section, for “a periodic review” substitute “a review under section 46”.
	( ) In that subsection, after paragraph (ba) (but before the following “or”) insert—
	“(bb) the exercise of the functions of English local authorities in arranging for the provision of adult social services,”.
	( ) After subsection (3) of that section insert—
	“(3A) A review or investigation under subsection (2)(b), in so far as it involves a review or investigation into the arrangements made for the provision of the adult social services in question, is to be treated as a review under subsection (2)(bb) (and the requirement for approval under subsection (1) is accordingly to apply).””
	150: Clause 83, page 73, line 25, at end insert—
	“( ) in section 293 of the Health and Social Care Act 2012, omit subsections (1) and (2);”
	Amendments 148 to 150 agreed.
	Amendments 151 and 152 not moved.
	Clause 84: Offence
	Amendment 152A
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	152A: Clause 84, page 73, line 42, leave out “exercises functions in connection with the provision of” and insert “provides”

Earl Howe: My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments 152B to 152F. These are amendments to the clauses that establish a new offence and penalties where care providers provide certain false or misleading information. Together with the new duty of candour on providers that we considered last Wednesday, this measure is key to supporting openness and transparency among care providers.
	We are making two substantive amendments. First, Amendment 152F extends the offence to directors and other senior individuals who consent to or connive in an offence committed by the care provider, as well as to cases where the negligence of senior individuals has led to the offence by the care provider. This amendment brings the offence into line with a number of other offences that are committed by organisations, such as Health and Safety at Work etc. Act offences and offences under the CQC legislation, where senior individuals are also liable for the offence. This will
	encourage directors and other senior individuals leading organisations to take greater ownership of the provision of information.
	Secondly, since Committee, the Government have reflected on the penalties for this offence. The provision of accurate information is central to the safe functioning of the health and social care system as it provides the intelligence on which commissioners and regulators form judgments about the quality of care. Where that information is wrong, it can result in delays in taking action to protect patients and service users. Falsifying such information is a serious matter that can frustrate attempts to provide safe care for patients and service users. In the light of this, we believe that a custodial sentence is warranted in the most serious cases. I am therefore bringing forward Amendment 152E, which introduces a maximum penalty on indictment of two years’ imprisonment. I emphasise that the Government are not of the view that the custodial penalty will be used with any frequency. The aim of the offence is not to punish directors and other senior individuals but, rather, to drive improvement and performance.
	The amendments also address a number of concerns that were raised in Committee. There was some debate about the scope of the false or misleading information offence. I should like to make it as clear as possible that the false or misleading information offence will apply only to the provision of publicly funded care. We will specify in regulations—a preliminary draft of which we have shared with noble Lords ahead of the debate—which information this will relate to, starting with information provided by hospitals. We are making a small number of amendments to clarify the scope of the offence. First, we are amending the definition of a care provider to make it clear that this does not include commissioners or regulators. We are also amending the wording so that the offence could apply to sole traders and all types of partnerships, such as GP practices, and to care providers who are funded by service users under direct payment arrangements. I beg to move.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I want to ask the noble Earl just one question. Why does it not apply to commissioners? We know from events that have happened in the past few years that in many cases commissioners have been responsible for issues by sins of omission or by not being completely open. It is a puzzle to me why all the emphasis is on providing and not on the way that commissioners actually operate. There is evidence, for instance, that the way some commissioners operate can have a direct impact on the quality of provision. We have already discussed this in relation to 15-minute visits. I am puzzled as to why so little attention is being paid to the way that commissioners themselves should operate.

Earl Howe: That is a perfectly reasonable question. The short answer is that, in determining the scope of this offence, our focus was and is on information that is closest to patient care, where inaccurate statements can allow poor and dangerous care to continue. That approach responds directly to the Francis report concerns about the manipulation of patient safety information. We believe, therefore, that the proposals are focused and proportionate. We are targeting this offence on
	the key patient safety and quality data that commissioners and regulators use to assess performance. We think that we have the balance right.
	Amendment 152A agreed.
	Amendments 152B and 152C
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	152B: Clause 84, page 74, line 1, leave out “body (other than a public body) which” and insert “person who”
	152C: Clause 84, page 74, line 4, at end insert “, or
	(c) a person who provides health services or adult social care in England all or part of the cost of which is paid for by means of a direct payment under section 12A of the National Health Service Act 2006 or under Part 1 of this Act.”
	Amendments 152B and 152C agreed.
	Clause 85: Penalties
	Amendments 152D and 152E
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	152D: Clause 85, page 74, line 35, leave out “care provider” and insert “person”
	152E: Clause 85, page 74, line 35, leave out from “liable” to end of line 36 and insert “—
	(a) on summary conviction, to a fine;
	(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for not more than two years or a fine (or both).”
	Amendments 152D and 152E agreed.
	Amendment 152F
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	152F: After Clause 85, insert the following new Clause—
	“Offences by bodies
	(1) Subsection (2) applies where an offence under section 84(1) is committed by a body corporate and it is proved that the offence is committed by, or with the consent or connivance of, or is attributable to neglect on the part of—
	(a) a director, manager or secretary of the body, or
	(b) a person purporting to act in such a capacity.
	(2) The director, manager, secretary or person purporting to act as such (as well as the body) is guilty of the offence and liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly (but section 85(2) does not apply).
	(3) The reference in subsection (2) to a director, manager or secretary of a body corporate includes a reference—
	(a) to any other similar officer of the body, and
	(b) where the body is a local authority, to a member of the authority.
	(4) Proceedings for an offence under section 84(1) alleged to have been committed by an unincorporated association are to be brought in the name of the association (and not in that of any of the members); and rules of court relating to the service of documents have effect as if the unincorporated association were a body corporate.
	(5) In proceedings for an offence under section 84(1) brought against an unincorporated association, section 33 of the Criminal Justice Act 1925 and Schedule 3 to the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980 apply as they apply in relation to a body corporate.
	(6) A fine imposed on an unincorporated association on its conviction for an offence under section 84(1) is to be paid out of the funds of the association.
	(7) Subsection (8) applies if an offence under section 84(1) is proved—
	(a) to have been committed by, or with the consent or connivance of, an officer of the association or a member of its governing body, or
	(b) to be attributable to neglect on the part of such an officer or member.
	(8) The officer or member (as well as the association) is guilty of the offence and liable to be proceeded against accordingly (but section 85(2) does not apply).”
	Amendment 152F agreed.
	Amendment 153
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	153: After Clause 85, insert the following new Clause—
	“Training for persons working in regulated activity
	In section 20 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 (regulation of regulated activities), after subsection (4) insert—
	“(4A) Regulations made under this section by virtue of subsection (3)(d) may in particular include provision for a specified person to set the standards which persons undergoing the training in question must attain.””

Earl Howe: My Lords, in Committee noble Lords were rightly concerned about the way that healthcare assistants and social care support workers are trained and supported to carry out the crucial tasks assigned to them. Amendments were also tabled concerning the regulation of this group of workers. I sought then to reassure noble Lords that the Government were determined to ensure that this important part of the workforce received high-quality and consistent training to deliver the best standards of support and care to patients and service users. Having listened very carefully to the views expressed in Committee, I have reflected a great deal on this important issue and today I am able to go further than I was able to do on that occasion.
	First, however, I shall provide a short recap. What we are now doing will mean building on what we have been putting in place since your Lordships’ House last discussed this issue during the passage of the Health and Social Care Act 2012. Common induction standards have been in place in social care since 2005, but the sector skills councils jointly published a code of conduct and national minimum training standards in March 2013. The standards place dignity and respect at the centre of the knowledge required to provide safe and effective care. The sector skills councils engaged comprehensively in the development of both the NMTS and the code of conduct across the health and social care sectors, including NHS and social care providers, the Health and Care Professions Council, the Royal College of Nursing, the Royal College of Midwives, the Nursing and Midwifery Council, and patient representative groups.
	We know that we need to build on these standards. The department is investing £130 million in training and developing the social care workforce this year. Working through Skills for Care, the Department of Health provides funding of some £12 million each year to social care employers to train and develop their workforce. Health Education England is also investing £13 million in the training and development of healthcare assistants.
	Good employers understand that they need to ensure that their staff are properly trained. Compassion in Practice, launched in December 2012 by the Chief Nursing Officer for England and the Department of Health Director of Nursing, calls on NHS and social care providers to ensure that their staff are supported and trained to do their jobs effectively. The Social Care Commitment, launched in September 2013, is a public commitment by social care employers to improve the quality of care and support services that they provide through managing and developing their staff effectively.
	The regulations covering CQC registration already place a legal obligation on employers in relation to the training of their staff. The regulations state that employers should ensure that their staff receive,
	“appropriate training, professional development, supervision and appraisal”,
	to enable them to carry out their responsibilities safely and to an appropriate standard. Where providers do not comply with registration requirements, the CQC has a range of enforcement powers that it can use, including prosecution. Statutory guidance on compliance with this registration requirement has also been published.
	Employers across the health and care system are investing large amounts in training their staff, and the arrangements for induction, training and performance management of this workforce must take account of the type of care and support provided by various employers. Much of it is of a high standard, but it is fair to recognise that there are problems with the consistency and quality of training provided in some cases, and we know that we need to go further. For this reason, I am putting forward my amendment.
	Amendment 153 will allow the Government to make regulations to specify who can set training standards for persons working in regulated activity, including healthcare assistants and social care support workers. Once the regulations come into force, the person or persons specified will provide a set of common training standards for healthcare assistants and social care support workers who provide regulated activities such as personal care. These standards can be used to evidence compliance with the CQC’s registration requirements, providing a consistency of approach in providing care that is dignified and respectful to patients and service users. The common training standards will also form the bedrock of what I am going to come to next.
	In February, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Health commissioned Camilla Cavendish to review the training and support given to healthcare assistants and social care support workers. When we debated the issue in June, the review had not been published and could not be discussed in detail. Our plan is to respond formally to the Cavendish review at the same time as the Government respond to the Francis inquiry. However, recognising the strength of feeling on the issue, I pushed incredibly hard to be able to indicate our intentions today. In advance of that response, I can announce that the Government have asked Health Education England to lead work with skills councils, delivery partners, providers and other
	stakeholders, such as the Nursing and Midwifery Council, to develop a certificate of fundamental care. We want to call this a “care certificate”.
	Our goal in introducing the care certificate is to ensure that healthcare assistants and social care support workers receive high-quality induction in the fundamentals of caring. This should ensure that they understand the skills required and that they demonstrate the behaviours needed to deliver compassionate care. The care certificate, and any training that underpins it, will need to take full account of the standards set by the person appointed by the regulations to do so. This will be key to ensuring that those standards are applied consistently throughout the health and social care sectors.
	Camilla Cavendish recommends that the certificate of fundamental care should build on the national minimum training standards, published by the sector skills councils in March of this year, which will also need to be aligned to any standards set in future. She also suggests that Health Education England should work with the Nursing and Midwifery Council on ensuring that practical elements of the nursing curriculum are incorporated into the certificate. We have asked Health Education England to ensure that the NMC and other stakeholders are fully involved in its work on the care certificate. Its work should also build on the best of training provision currently on offer across the health and care sectors.
	The care certificate will provide clear evidence to employers, patients and service users that the person in front of them has been trained to a specific set of standards and has the skills, knowledge and behaviours to ensure that they provide compassionate and high-quality care and support.
	We will work with the CQC to incorporate into its guidance the requirement for staff to hold a care certificate. In the same way as completion of the common induction standards is currently used as evidence of compliance with registration requirements for social care providers, so completion of the care certificate could, in future, be used as evidence of compliance with CQC registration requirements. The care certificate could be used as a set of standards not only in relation to CQC regulated activities but across all health and adult social care.
	The Government recognise the concerns expressed on previous occasions in your Lordships’ House about the training of this critical part of the workforce. However, I hope that the House will recognise our commitment to bringing greater consistency and quality to the training provided to healthcare assistants and social care support workers, enabling them to place compassionate care at the heart of everything they do. I beg to move.

Lord Willis of Knaresborough: My Lords, I rise, somewhat gobsmacked, as they say in Yorkshire, at the launching by my noble friend of what has been a major breakthrough in the training of healthcare support workers. I notice that the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, is nodding in approval as this is an area with which she too has been very closely concerned. I thank my noble friend for making that commitment. It makes most of my speech totally irrelevant but, nevertheless, I will add one or two bits just for good measure.
	There is no doubt that there is an overwhelming case for appropriately training the 1.3 million healthcare support workers who do such a fantastic job in care homes and domiciliary settings, as well as in hospitals. This has been a national scandal so far. These people are a hugely valuable part of the workforce and it is important to recognise them as such.
	I should like to ask some brief questions. Camilla Cavendish recommended that the certificate of fundamental care be a baseline on which there would be an advanced certificate. That would lead directly into nurse training so that there would be no glass ceiling for healthcare support workers, particularly since nursing has moved on to being an all-graduate profession. When the Minister responds, I hope that he will be able to say whether that is within the psyche. The idea of having student nurses working alongside healthcare support workers, particularly those training for the advanced level, is a good one, so that you know the skills mix that you are working with.
	In Amendment 153, I railed at the word “may”. The amendment states:
	“Regulations made under this section by virtue of subsection (3)(d) may in particular include provision for a specified person”.
	Surely, the Minister could go one step further and say that, at Third Reading, it will become a “must” and not a “may”. The one thing we must not have—there are a lot of musts—is a situation where people can move away from this need to be able to make sure that within a short period the whole of our social, health and care workforce will be properly trained to a standard approved by the sector skills council and the Nursing and Midwifery Council. That is a major breakthrough.
	My noble friend is right that there are some excellent training programmes. I have seen many of them. I remember one for healthcare support workers at John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford within the hospital setting. I know that many care homes give superb training to their staff because that leads to good patient outcomes which sell the product. Has any thought gone into existing training being recognised so that people do not have to go through another hoop for the sake of getting their certificate? Perhaps Health Education England can do that with this. I hope other noble Lords will comment on our amendment.
	Amendment 160 remains a thorny issue. A mandatory regulatory system for healthcare support workers has been on the table. Francis himself made it clear that this workforce should be regulated. Until now, my problem with that has been that there has been very little to regulate because if people are not trained to approved standards, how on earth do you have a regulatory system by which you can judge their competence? Now that we are getting one, I hope that the Minister will look again at regulation so that we get the complete package and, my goodness, this will be a Care Bill that we can really celebrate.

Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Willis, has just referred to my Amendment 160. It relates to the regulation of health and care support workers. I have long thought that the regulation of support workers is necessary, desirable and inevitable because they play such an important role in caring for
	so many people. I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Willis, for the outstanding work he did for the RCN’s independent commission which has informed this debate about standards of care workers.
	I very much welcome what the Minister said about the development of a certificate of fundamental care. My noble friend Lord Young reminded me that I ought to ask the Minister at what level that is going to be because anyone who understands these issues will know that the level of a certificate is very important.
	I want to draw together Amendments 153, 158 and 160. Given that in future when employers wish to take on care workers they will expect a certificate of fundamental care, does the Minister not think it inevitable that there will be a list of people who have been awarded the certificate? Does he not also think it inevitable that once you have that list, if you then have a person with a certificate and they transgress and there is concern about the way they care for people, there will inevitability be a drive to ask how you get that certificate off them? I believe regulation is inevitable now. There is no way away from the fact that once you have a certificate like this, there will have to be a list or a register and people will have to be evaluated. I for one very much welcome what the Minister has announced because it is a very important step along the road of regulation.

Baroness Wall of New Barnet: My Lords, I, too, welcome the announcement, and I am sure that the noble Earl is not surprised at the depth of feeling I have in welcoming it. I see this as a step towards regulation. He might baulk at that but, as the noble Lord, Lord Willis, said, regulation is important for us, and I have been asking for it for a long time. However, I also have felt: what is it we are regulating in the sense of the absolute ultimate? So I think this gives us a very clear and descriptive way in which that can be measured.
	I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Willis, said about “may”. That must be “must”, please, because “may” gives such a lot of flexibility that we may go back to exactly where we are right now if people are not required to carry this out. I very much agree that regulation helps in bringing value into the skill mix. My noble friend Lord Hunt referred to an aside by his colleague sitting alongside him. As somebody who is involved in skills heavily, whether it is NVQ level 1, 2 or 3—which I am sure my noble friend Lord Young was referring to—I know from the work that I have done with Skills for Care that the aim is that between level 2 and 3 will be competent level because obviously it depends very much on what people start with.
	A final point, which the noble Lord, Lord Willis, picked up on and which we have in industry as well, is how we measure the skills and experience that people already have when we try to ascertain where they fit in. One of the dispiriting things that we find elsewhere is that, when people are asked to take a level 2 or 3, no recognition is made of what they have already gained while they have been doing the job. Skills for Care knows how to cope with that in the way that the skills levels are drawn up.
	I thank the noble Earl very much. I spoke before about being tedious. I am sure that the way in which he has pursued this issue has nothing to do with me or other people being tedious; it is because he has a belief in it.

Baroness Emerton: My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Earl the Minister for what he has said. I think I have probably been more of a pain than anybody on this subject. I thank the noble Earl very much for the assurances that he has given.
	I have one or two very quick questions. He knows that I have a thing about Skills for Care and Skills for Health. Who is going to decide the membership of those groups? I am concerned that in teaching skills each individual care worker will want to have the background knowledge to support their skill. It is no good just teaching someone a simple skill without having the knowledge behind it. It reminded me that 63 years ago I was a St John Ambulance cadet. I did an elementary first-aid course where a doctor taught elementary anatomy, physiology and treatment of first aid. I then went on to home nursing and was taught by a registered nurse how to look after patients in the home, provide good nutrition and prevent bed sores. I think probably what I knew at the age of 11 is more than what some of our healthcare professionals know today. What will be the professional input into Skills for Health and Skills for Care? Who will do the syllabus, the curriculum and the teaching? Presumably Health Education England and the NMC will give the backing to that. If we could have that assurance, it would keep me quiet for a little longer.

Lord Warner: My Lords, I also thank the Minister for his persistence within Whitehall in actually getting progress in this area. I think we all feel that he has put a lot of personal effort into it and deserves a great deal of credit.
	If I may, I will ask a couple of slightly nerdy questions. I think that the issue of where this stands in the pecking order is vital. Is it down at NVQ levels 1 and 2? Is it up at level 3? How far away is it from the degree-level professional qualifications? In some ways, the title that has been given to this rather diminishes its standing up the food chain, so to speak. A certificate of fundamental care sounds a bit basic, and I am not quite sure what signals are given about the level that Health Education England should strive for in overseeing this particular work. A lot more work needs to be done on that.
	Perhaps I may also pick up the point that my noble friend Lord Hunt hinted at. At the end of the day, if employers are to make this operate, they need some kind of register of who has the certificate. They also need to know what happens when they fire somebody and take disciplinary action against someone who has this certificate. Who do they tell? That seems a quite critical issue, because this is a very large workforce and it would be quite surprising if each year we did not get a steady flow of bad cases where an employer has fired someone for a breach of good practice of one kind or another. This would all be set to nought if there was no record of where these cases of disciplinary action
	have been taken, and people with a certificate were still floating around the system when they have actually been released by an employer for poor practice.

Lord Patel: My Lords, I have put my name to Amendment 158. I also thank the Minister for pulling a rabbit out of the hat, so to speak. However, I am not as gobsmacked as the noble Lord, Lord Willis of Knaresborough, because I have lost count of the number of times and days in this Chamber that we have debated the need for training healthcare support workers. I am at least glad that it has now paid some dividends.
	I am also glad that the noble Earl said that Health Education England would take the lead on this, and will involve the NMC in devising the standardised training programmes, because it has the expertise to do it. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and others that this inevitably means there will need to be some sanctions for those who do not fulfil the requirements for training and therefore fail to be regulated. I am not sure whether that is for this Bill or subsequently, but it will inevitably lead to that. However, I thank the noble Earl for his amendment.

Lord MacKenzie of Culkein: My Lords, I join in the congratulations to the Minister on his words this afternoon. For a long time I have felt that trying to get some movement on this issue of education and training for healthcare assistants was rather like the sufferings of Sisyphus pushing that stone uphill. Fortunately, I was wrong and the debates that we have had on this issue over the past few months have clearly borne fruit.
	I join the noble Lord, Lord Willis, in saying that the permissive “may” in Amendment 153 should be changed to “must”. It is extremely important that that happens if at all possible. For me, regulating healthcare assistants has been an issue since the long preparation for Project 2000 and the eventual demise of the enrolled nurse, leaving the gap which has now had to be addressed in this way.
	The Minister has always been careful to say that the Government do not have a closed mind on regulation. I hope that that remains the position because, given the position we have now arrived at, it is inevitable, for the reasons that my noble friends Lord Hunt and Lord Warner have given, that regulation will come some day. To coin the current phrase, it is a can that has been kicked down the road long enough. We ought to stop kicking it and get there sooner rather than later.
	I heard the Minister say in the past that regulation is not a guarantor of good care. That, as far as it goes, is true, because if it was a guarantor, there would be no poor practice or misconduct in any profession. That is not an argument against regulation for all the professions that are properly regulated to safeguard the public. I hope that an open mind will be kept on this and that we can come back to the issue of regulation, which is now inevitable. Having said that, I am grateful and delighted that we have made the progress that we have today and again I thank the Minister for his persistence in this matter.

Earl Howe: My Lords, I am very pleased that noble Lords have recognised the announcement I made today about the development of the care certificate, led by Health Education England working with professional bodies and the sector skills councils. It goes a long way to ensuring that we address training and quality standards for this part of the workforce.
	I shall do my best to answer the questions that have been put to me. First, I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Willis who has made a very important contribution to the debate on healthcare assistants in the Willis Commission on Nursing Education. I acknowledge his long-standing interest and expertise in this area. While the government position on a recommendation such as regulation is different from his—I will come on to regulation in a moment—we share his concern that healthcare assistants and social care support workers need to have the training to do the tasks that they are asked to do. I am well aware of the recommendations that he has made in that area and we will not lose sight of them.
	My noble friend asked about government Amendment 153 and why it does not say “must” instead of “may”. First, I can commit that we will make regulations in this area. The amendment provides an expressed power to delegate the standard-setting function to another body if we so choose. It is in the Secretary of State’s power to delegate. The amendment states “may” because the Secretary of State may in the future wish to set the training standards which he would be able to do under his existing powers. The Secretary of State would not be able to do that if regulations had been made that delegated this function to another body.
	The noble Lord, Lord Warner, asked what the care certificate will look like. It is a little too soon for me to answer that in any detail. Health Education England is still considering that issue because of the range of settings in which healthcare assistants and social care support workers operate. We have asked Health Education England to ensure that the approach to the care certificate is flexible so that it is meaningful in every setting. As Camilla Cavendish recommends, they will need to build on the best of the training and development practice which is out there, and the good work that is being done on the code of conduct and the national minimum training standards. A key requirement is to ensure that the skills and behaviours are taught so that we move away from the tick-box approach identified in some instances in the Cavendish review. I know that that is a particular concern—rightly—of the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton. Equally, the noble Lord, Lord Warner, was right to say that we have to think about the mechanisms which would allow, in appropriate cases, the withdrawal of a certificate where an individual had been found wanting in their caring skills.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, asked who will be involved in the development of the certificate. As I have said, Health Education England has been asked to lead this work. It will engage with sectoral bodies, including the sector skills councils, but also more particularly the NMC, the RCN and providers of care. The department will be involved as well. I can reassure her that the code of conduct and the national minimum trading standards were not solely the product of the
	sector skills councils but were very much the result of consultation and cross-sector working with a number of professional bodies.
	My noble friend Lord Willis asked whether there would be an advanced certificate. An advanced certificate, bridging into nursing qualifications, certainly needs to be considered as part of the wider response to Camilla Cavendish’s report and we may have more to say about that when we make our official response. However, we agree that any work done by Health Education England must look at the broader picture and the other recommendations made by Camilla Cavendish.
	My noble friend also asked about recognising existing high standards of training, where those pertain. He is absolutely right that we need to build on the best training that is out there and to recognise the tasks that people are called upon to do. The Cavendish review makes recommendations on better quality assurance which we are also considering.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Wall, asked what we do about healthcare assistants and social care support workers who are already working in the field. That is a point of detail which is still to be worked through but, in principle, if someone is already working as a healthcare assistant or social care support worker and meets the standards there should be some way for them to demonstrate this without having to undergo unnecessary repeat training.
	The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, suggested that, if we have gone this far, it is almost inevitable that we should proceed to regulate this sector of the workforce. I do not agree with him, but, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord MacKenzie, our minds are still open to the possibility of regulation at some time in the future. However, we need to bear in mind that statutory regulation is not just about training: it is a much broader process and we do not currently view it as appropriate or proportionate for healthcare assistants and social care workers. Statutory regulation involves setting standards of conduct required within a scope of practice; protecting commonly recognised professional titles; establishing a list of registered practitioners, which is quite an onerous process; providing a way in which complaints can be dealt with fairly and appropriately and allowing a regulator to strike off an individual from a register. We must make no mistake about how complex a business this is. I emphasise that we will continue to review this whole question as we go along but we do not think it is appropriate at present.
	The noble Lord, Lord Patel, asked what sanctions there will be for people who do not meet the standards described in the certificate and the noble Lord, Lord Warner, asked a similar question. Unfortunately, I do not have a detailed answer for him today. However, it is a pertinent point that, as the development of the certificate continues, we will need to bottom out. Managers and the CQC will play a big role and are important in ensuring that the certificate is an effective way of evidencing people’s skills.
	The noble Lord, Lord Warner, asked a related question about who an employer tells if they fire someone with the certificate. The process operated by employers under the existing system should include
	checks on various matters, including qualifications. However, the disclosure and barring service also provides a further layer of assurance by helping employers make safer recruitment decisions and prevent unsuitable people working with vulnerable groups.
	The noble Lord asked what level the certificate would be set at. It is, at this stage, basic training but full details have not been finalised and I hope noble Lords will understand that if I go any further on this point I am in danger of pre-empting our formal response to the Cavendish report. Currently, the national minimum training standards cover issues such as how to communicate effectively with stakeholders, how to ensure that care is person-centred, how to handle patients, and infection control and prevention. However, no doubt those issues will be looked at and, if appropriate, built on.
	I stress that I recognise how much of an issue of concern this is. I will take the opportunity to reassure noble Lords that, while what I am describing is the right course of action, we will continue to keep under review further measures as necessary. With that, I hope that noble Lords will feel reassured that there is already in place a proportionate system and process to provide public assurance, and that these measures, in addition to the commitments that I made today in relation to the training and development of the workforce, will in their totality be sufficient to enable them to feel comfortable in not pressing their amendments.
	Amendment 153 agreed.
	Schedule 5: Health Education England
	Amendment 154
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	154: Schedule 5, page 112, line 6, at end insert—
	“(0 ) The non-executive members of HEE must include a person who will represent the interests of patients.”

Earl Howe: My Lords, I will speak also to Amendments 155, 156, 157, 161, 162, 163 and 164.
	It is important that Health Education England, through its education and training functions, is able to develop a workforce that is informed by, and responsive to, the needs of patients and service users. Robert Francis QC highlighted the importance of embedding a culture of listening to, and engaging with, patients in his report of the Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust public inquiry. The report included a recommendation that Health Education England should include a lay patient representative on its board. The Government supported that recommendation and tabled Amendment 154 to require the Health Education England board to include a non-executive member who will represent the interests of patients. Indeed, we have already taken steps to recruit such a non-executive member to the board of the Health Education England Special Health Authority. However, it is our intention to go further. Amendment 162 would require local education and training boards to include a person who will represent the interests of patients.
	Amendments 163 and 164 reflect minor changes to the drafting of Clause 94. Together, they clarify that the regulations requiring clinical expertise on LETBs relate to the provision in subsection (3)(b) of Clause 94.
	In setting up Health Education England up as a non-departmental public body, it is important that we give it the appropriate levels of autonomy and flexibility to determine how it organises itself and performs its functions. Amendment 155 seeks to enable Health Education England to arrange for any of its committees, sub-committees, members or any other person to exercise its functions on its behalf. Linked to Amendment 155, Amendment 156 seeks to enable Health Education England to make payments to any of its committees, sub-committees or members, or to any other person to whom it delegates functions. These amendments bring Health Education England into line with other bodies established under the Health and Social Care Act 2012 that have powers enabling functions to be exercised by their committees and by their non-executive and executive members. It is also consistent with Amendment 165, which covers the Health Research Authority.
	Amendment 157 seeks to amend the Bill to clarify that Health Education England may not delegate the functions of a local education and training board to any other committee, sub-committee, member or any other person. The functions of the LETB will continue to be the sole responsibility of those committees established as local education and training boards. This is important and reflects the discrete role of the local education and training boards and the separation in the Bill of responsibilities for national and local education and training functions.
	We had an excellent debate in Committee on the important role that education and training can play in supporting research. I know we are all in agreement that it is vital to create a workforce in the health service that is innovative and research-literate, with the skills required to diffuse the latest ideas and innovations.
	The noble Lords, Lord Turnberg and Lord Patel, and my noble friend Lord Willis sought reassurance that the duty placed in Clause 89 on Health Education England to promote research would be equally applicable to LETBs when exercising their local workforce planning, education and training functions. As I set out in Committee, our view is that local education and training boards are obliged to support Health Education England in delivery of its primary duties. However, I have given this some thought and agree that it is important to reinforce the Bill to make this clearer. Amendment 161 not only seeks to clarify that the duty to promote research applies equally to LETBs but makes it clear in the Bill that Health Education England’s duties relating to continuous quality improvement and promotion of the NHS Constitution apply also at a local level.
	These amendments will strengthen the patient voice within Health Education England and the local education and training boards, provide greater autonomy and flexibility, and ensure a strong research duty. I hope that noble Lords feel able to give these amendments their support. I beg to move.

Lord Aberdare: My Lords, My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 160A, which is sandwiched in the middle of this group of government amendments. My amendment seeks to add an additional matter to which Health Education England must have regard when publishing its objectives and priorities—namely,
	“the needs of patients to have their conditions diagnosed promptly”.
	This is intended to promote the interests of patients suffering from diseases that are hard to diagnose but where early diagnosis can be critical. There are, of course, a number of such conditions, but the Minister may not be surprised to learn that the particular condition on which I shall focus is pancreatic cancer, for which early diagnosis is often literally a matter of life and death. This amendment is based on my work with the charity Pancreatic Cancer UK. I am also a member of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Pancreatic Cancer, chaired by my noble friend Lord Patel, which has been conducting an inquiry into how survival rates can be improved. Speed of diagnosis is critical and depends largely on the level of awareness of pancreatic cancer and its symptoms in primary care.
	The 2010 National Cancer Patient Experience Survey found that 40% of pancreatic cancer patients visit their GP three times or more before being referred to hospital for investigation. The National Cancer Intelligence Network has found that half of all pancreatic cancer patients are diagnosed only as a result of an emergency admission to hospital. Patients diagnosed via this route have far lower one-year survival rates—only 9%, compared to 26% for patients diagnosed as a result of GP referral. A 2012 survey of GPs found that half said that they were not confident that they could identify the signs and symptoms of possible pancreatic cancer in a patient. Education and training are needed to give them enhanced skills and tools in order to improve their ability to recognise and diagnose the symptoms of conditions such as pancreatic cancer, and to help prevent the sort of shuttling between GPs and a range of different secondary care providers that some patients undergo before a firm diagnosis is made. That needs to be a clear part of Health Education England’s brief.
	The aim of this amendment, therefore, is simply to ensure that such a responsibility is formally included among matters to which Health Education England must have regard. It would require it specifically to recognise that time is of the essence in diseases such as pancreatic cancer, and encourage HEE to identify, share and promote best practice in achieving earlier diagnosis. It might, for example, lead to initiatives such as conducting case reviews with experts from the Royal College of General Practitioners to determine why cases identified through emergency admission could not have been diagnosed earlier. I hope that such initiatives would help to close the gap between the UK and other leading countries that do significantly better in terms of survival rates and other outcomes.
	My amendment may not be the best way to achieve these goals but it is important that they should be achieved, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response as to how this can and will be done.

Lord Patel: My Lords, I rise to support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare. He is extremely knowledgeable about issues relating to pancreatic cancer. While the principles of early diagnosis and related outcomes are important for all diseases, this is particularly so for cancers and especially for certain cancers, such as pancreatic cancer. I have spoken before in this House about how two members of my family—my mother and my mother-in-law—both died of pancreatic cancer. Emphasising the need for early diagnosis of any disease is important in the training of doctors and nurses.

Baroness Wheeler: My Lords, we very much welcome this important group of amendments. If one reads back over the debates on the Bill in Committee, there can be little doubt that the provisions for HEE and LETBs have been considerably strengthened and improved by your Lordships’ detailed scrutiny and deliberations. These amendments consolidate that work.
	We have also been encouraged by the progress that HEE has been making under the leadership of Sir Keith Pearson. The website demonstrates this, and the HEE leadership team has been highly visible at conferences and forums, setting out its proposed strategic priorities and consulting on the way forward. In particular, HEE seems to have taken up the key message that, in educating and training staff for NHS and public health, it must have a strategic understanding of the workforce requirements across the boundaries of health and social care and of the need for staff to work in an integrated way. This has been a major concern. I was pleased, for example, to hear the HEE medical director, Wendy Reid, emphasise this at a recent Westminster Health Forum workforce conference that I chaired.
	These amendments strengthen the role of LETBs by emphasising that HEE duties under Clause 89 to ensure that quality improvement in education and training, promotion of research—as the Minister has stated—and the NHS Constitution all apply to LETBs. This is an important provision and reflects concerns expressed in Committee that LETBs must pay attention to the maintenance of standards and quality in education and training, as well as ensuring that sufficient numbers of staff are trained locally. This was a point made by my noble friend Lord Turnberg and which the Minister addressed earlier.
	Amendments explicitly providing HEE with authority to delegate its functions to its committees, sub-committees, members or other persons are important in allowing HEE the flexibility that it needs to deliver its priorities and functions, and we strongly support them.
	On HEE board and LETB representation, we join other noble Lords in expressing our relief at the government amendments, which ensure that people with clinical expertise are appointed to both bodies. This was a serious omission and its inclusion now greatly strengthens the Bill, as does the Government’s commitments that regulations will place a specific requirement on HEE and LETBs to include a nurse and a doctor. It is particularly important, as my noble friend Lord Hunt underlined in Committee, for the people in the driving seat on education and training requirements, standards and future needs at local level
	to be those who provide the services. HEE and LETBs must understand the pressures that the service is under in relation to staffing and to ensuring that education and training is flexible and responsive to the rapidly changing face and needs of health and social care. The implementation of the Francis recommendations for a lay patient representative on the HEE board and LETBs is also a key change to the Bill, which we strongly welcome and which will only enhance the work and effectiveness of those bodies.
	Finally, as supportive of HEE as we are, it is hard to see in HEE work to date a clear strategy for developing the vital cadre of NHS managers that is needed to lead the NHS in the coming months and decades. There was a strong concern about this in Committee and the need for close working with HEE and the NHS Leadership Academy was acknowledged by the Minister. The Joint Committee wanted to see a statutory commitment for HEE to work in partnership with the academy, to ensure that managers in training work alongside their clinical colleagues and to increase the number of managers in the future who have clinical experience. Does the Minister not agree that this needs to be an explicit, upfront priority for HEE, which translates through to the work of LETBs? How will the Government ensure that this vital issue is addressed?

Earl Howe: My Lords, I turn first to the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare. He has, of course, raised a very important matter. I think that it would be too ambitious for me to offer him complete comfort on this issue at the Dispatch Box, but I hope that I can give him some. It is essential that patients have their conditions diagnosed promptly and effectively. Both Health Education England and the other responsible bodies, such as the professional regulators and royal colleges that are involved in setting the standards and content of education and training, must work together to ensure that the latest best practice is followed to deliver the best possible outcomes for patients. That is fundamental.
	Going further, I reassure the noble Lord that in delivering its education and training functions, Health Education England will be very focused on doing so in a manner that supports the efficient delivery of NHS and public health services and the achievement of the best possible outcomes for patients. Health Education England has a clear duty in Clause 89 to exercise its education and training functions with a view to securing continuous improvement in the quality of health services. Those are not idle words; they are significant.
	It is also important to remember that the NHS constitution includes pledges on access to NHS services, including the right to access services within maximum waiting times. The Government are clear that bodies in the new health system must support the NHS constitution, which is why in Clause 89 there is a clear duty for Health Education England to promote the NHS constitution.
	Finally, the list in Clause 91 of matters that Health Education England must have regard to includes the Government’s mandate to NHS England. I reassure the noble Lord in that context that the mandate already contains an explicit objective for NHS England to make progress in supporting the earlier diagnosis of
	illness as part of preventing people from dying prematurely. I acknowledge that this is a very important matter. I hope that for the reasons I have set out the noble Lord will feel somewhat comforted and reassured, at least enough not to press his amendment. I have no doubt that this is a debate that we will continue to have at reasonably regular intervals.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, asked what role Health Education England will play in developing NHS managers and whether it should be a priority for it. Health Education England is working closely with the Leadership Academy to support the development of the next generation of managers and clinical leaders. The Government included this as an objective in Health Education England’s mandate.
	Amendment 154 agreed.
	Amendments 155 to 157
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	155: Schedule 5, page 114, line 33, at end insert—
	“(1A) HEE may arrange for any of its committees, sub-committees or members or any other person to exercise any of its functions on its behalf (but see sub-paragraph (4)).”
	156: Schedule 5, page 114, line 36, after “sub-paragraph” insert “(1A) or”
	157: Schedule 5, page 115, line 1, after “LETB” insert “, or for a sub-committee, member or any other person,”
	Amendments 155 to 157 agreed.
	Amendments 158 to 160 not moved.
	Clause 91: Sections 88 and 90: matters to which HEE must have regard
	Amendment 160A not moved.
	Clause 93: Local Education and Training Boards
	Amendment 161
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	161: Clause 93, page 80, line 5, at end insert—
	“( ) Subsections (1), (2) and (4) of section 89 (quality improvement in education and training etc.) apply to an LETB in the exercise of its functions as they apply to HEE in the exercise of its functions.”
	Amendment 161 agreed.
	Clause 94: LETBs: appointment etc.
	Amendments 162 to 164
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	162: Clause 94, page 80, line 23, at end insert “, and
	( ) a person who will represent the interests of patients.”
	163: Clause 94, page 80, line 24, leave out “The regulations” and insert “Regulations under paragraph (b) of subsection (3)”
	164: Clause 94, page 80, line 24, leave out “that expertise” and insert “the expertise mentioned in that paragraph”
	Amendments 162 to 164 agreed.
	Schedule 7: The Health Research Authority
	Amendment 165
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	165: Schedule 7, page 126, line 36, after “any” insert “of its committees, sub-committees or members or any other”

Earl Howe: My Lords, at this point it will be convenient to consider also Amendments 166, 167 and 168. We have previously had some valuable debates about the Health Research Authority’s role in promoting transparency in research. I thank the Joint Committee that scrutinised the draft Bill and the Science and Technology Select Committee in the other place for their reports, which have informed Amendments 166 and 167.
	In previous stages of the Bill’s passage, the noble Lords, Lord Patel, Lord Turnberg, Lord Warner and Lord Winston, the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, and my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury have made particularly valuable contributions to the debate on this issue, which I have listened to with considerable interest. The Government have also discussed the Health Research Authority’s role in promoting transparency with stakeholders and with the existing special health authority.
	The life sciences industry plays a key role in the Government’s strategy for economic growth and makes a valuable contribution to both the health and wealth of our nation. The Government agree that there is a powerful case for increasing transparency in clinical trials. Ensuring that research is registered and published and that data, information and tissue are available where relevant will help to make the best use of research, thereby maximising the health benefits for patients and the public from research undertaken and thus maximising the return on our investment in research. Amendment 166 makes it explicit that the Health Research Authority’s objective of facilitating the conduct of safe and ethical research includes promoting transparency in research. Amendment 167 lists some of the ways in which the HRA must promote transparency.
	The existing special health authority is already making great strides in promoting transparency in research. The Health Research Authority published an action plan in May 2013, which received widespread support from a range of stakeholders including researchers, research sponsors, funders, professional bodies, stakeholders and members of the public with an interest in transparent research. Since 30 September, registration of clinical trials in a publicly accessible database has been a condition of favourable ethical approval from a research ethics committee.
	These amendments will ensure that the Health Research Authority continues to promote greater transparency in research when it becomes a non-departmental public body. By doing so, that authority will continue to reassure people who participate in research that research is not duplicated unnecessarily and that unnecessary risks and burdens continue to be avoided. As promoting transparency in research is specifically included within its objective under Amendment 166, the Government would expect that the annual report would cover the authority’s measures to meet this section of its objective.
	While there is more to be done in this area, including by research funders, I hope that I have been able to reassure noble Lords that great strides are being taken and will continue to be taken.
	Amendment 165 clarifies that the Health Research Authority may delegate any of its functions to any of its committees, sub-committees, members or any other person. The amendment mirrors a similar amendment that we have already debated with respect to Health Education England in Schedule 5—it was Amendment 157.
	Finally, I would like to explain briefly Amendment 168, which corrects an oversight in the drafting of the Bill. It ensures that an appropriate body under the Mental Capacity Act (Appropriate Body) (England) Regulations 2006 is a research ethics committee recognised or established by or on behalf of the Health Research Authority, rather than a research ethics committee recognised by the Secretary of State.
	I thank noble Lords and others for the contributions that have informed the amendments on the HRA’s role in promoting transparency in research. I hope that they will be welcomed. I beg to move.

Lord Willis of Knaresborough: My Lords, first, I declare an interest as the chair of the Association of Medical Research Charities. The brief comments that I am about to make are an amalgam of those made with the Academy of Medical Sciences, Cancer Research UK and the Wellcome Trust. On behalf of all those organisations, I can say how much we welcome these amendments and the way in which the HRA has so quickly become embedded into the research psyche. The work that it is doing ensures that on each of the major obstacles—of which ethics was the first, particularly in local ethics committees, but going right through to the regulation that it is starting to streamline, particularly with the Human Tissue Authority—we are really seeing a march forward. Frankly, the progress that has been made has staggered me. I congratulate not only the chairman and chief executive of that organisation but the Minister himself.
	However, I would like briefly to explore one or two issues with Amendments 166 and 167. Leaving out “such research” in Amendment 166 and inserting,
	“research that is safe and ethical (including by promoting transparency in research)”,
	is welcome, but we have concerns about the definition. In particular, as the Minister has tried in Amendment 167 to expand on that definition, I would like to press him on one or two of those requirements.
	The HRA itself is concerned that expectation about transparency could get ahead of itself. For instance, on the provision of data and tissue, the research authority itself does not in fact have access to or grant permission for any tissue or data that is in the possession of researchers themselves. I hope that that does not become a blind expectation. Looking at the first of the ethical requirements—paragraph (a) in Amendment 167 on the need for registration of research—while we welcome the announcement that ethics approval for
	clinical trials will be conditional on trial regulation, the HRA’s remit extends beyond clinical trials to include all forms of research, including that with human participants. There is clearly no expectation or mechanism by which all research should be registered, so this requirement as tabled is currently not feasible or proportionate.
	However, the HRA has indicated that it is giving further consideration to the registration of other studies, and I wonder whether the Minister—when this Bill goes back to the Commons, which is probably the most appropriate time—could suggest an alteration. Instead of saying, “the registration of research”, it perhaps should read, “the registration of clinical trials”.
	Turning to paragraph (c) on the provision of access to data, we again support the emphasis on research data, but recognise that those data have to be appropriate. It would not be right to be able to give some of those data out for obvious reasons of patient and individual confidentiality. We wonder, therefore, whether the words “appropriate access” would be a better way to limit what the HRA is going to be responsible for. With respect to paragraph (d)—
	“the provision of information at the end of research to participants in the research”—
	again, I need to know what that means, because providing high-level summary information to every participant at the end of research would be a hugely demanding task. To aggregate it would not be, so “aggregated information” might be a more accurate way of dealing with that problem.
	Finally, I come to,
	“the provision of access to tissue used in research, for use in future research”.
	All the organisations I am speaking for support the principle behind this requirement. It is important to recognise, however, that tissue is a limited resource. It is not always possible or appropriate to ensure that such access is provided. However, with those comments and requests for clarification, I can say that this emphasis on transparency is very warmly welcomed and we thank the Minister for it.

Lord Patel: I concur with what the noble Lord, Lord Willis of Knaresborough, just said. All of the research councils and charities support these amendments. There are the caveats to which he referred, particularly related to clinical trials and data. There is another important issue about the summary given at the conclusion of the research, which not only has to protect the confidentiality of the patients but also needs to be brief, because otherwise it is too cumbersome. On the whole, these amendments that we debated long and hard are most welcome.

Lord Mackay of Clashfern: I also agree with the view that these are important headings. The precise detail has been mentioned by the noble Lord. Regarding paragraph (c) of Amendment 167, I think that access to the data is quite important although it requires consideration. It is important that the experiment or trial can be repeated. One of the difficulties in the past has sometimes been the announcement of research findings. When those in the same area tried to find out exactly what the findings were based on, there was some difficulty in repeating the experiment and
	occasionally there was something seriously wrong with the research. Therefore, access to the data certainly has to be kept in view if one is going to have proper transparency. However, I accept that, like paragraph (c) of Amendment 167 and the other paragraphs, it requires an amount of restriction in certain cases.

Baroness Wheeler: My Lords, I welcome the Government’s decision in Amendment 167 to support the recommendation of the Joint Committee on promoting transparency in research and ensuring full publication of the results of research consistent with patient confidentiality. It is right that this should be a statutory objective of the Health Research Authority. The arguments in support of this at the Committee stage from noble Lords were very compelling and, since then, have been strongly reinforced by the House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report into clinical trials and, indeed, the strategy and ongoing work undertaken by HRA itself.
	In particular, HRA’s September announcement requiring registration of clinical trials in a publicly accessible database as a condition of ethical acceptance—taking up a longstanding recommendation of the Association of Medical Research Charities—recognises the overwhelming support for this agenda. The HRA has much to do in the coming months to develop its guidance into practical measures, but the Bill now gives clear and explicit direction to its work. The HRA has stressed that it expects the vast majority of researchers, sponsors and funders to embrace the plans to realise greater openness, responsible data sharing and publication of all results, and this is very welcome news.
	It is so important for patients and the public to have confidence that the research they have been involved in will be used in the best way to improve understanding and health outcomes for the groups involved. Improved transparency is vital if more patients are to be encouraged to become involved in clinical research—one of the key ambitions of AMRC’s excellent vision for research in the NHS. The noble Lord, Lord Willis, referred to reservations. I was going to raise them and I am glad he did. I look forward to the Minister’s response. He may need to write to us in detail about those reservations and his response to that, or there might be a need for some small rewording of the draft provisions before Third Reading.
	Finally, we recognise that the HRA is strongly committed to working with other bodies to overcome the barriers to transparency and create a culture of openness. Changing culture is, however, a tough call in the NHS. We also know from the AMRC research survey covering both doctors and nurses that we have a long way to go to get NHS staff to take part in research in the first place, let alone sign up to the transparency agenda. GPs are an important gateway for getting patients involved in research. However, although a majority of GPs surveyed believed it very important for the NHS to support research and treat for their patients, only 32% of those surveyed felt it was very important for them to be personally involved. Will the Government ensure that HRA and HEE work closely on this very important issue of buy-in to research and transparency by NHS staff? How will they ensure that the CCGs fully engage in this agenda?

Earl Howe: My Lords, I am very grateful to noble Lords for their questions and comments. Without spending too much time, I shall try to cover the questions raised. Anything I do not cover, I undertake to answer in a letter. My noble friend Lord Willis asked a number of questions about how he should interpret the provisions in Amendment 167 in particular. Incidentally, it is important to point out that the way Amendment 167 is framed means that the HRA may do other things to promote transparency and research, not just the things that are listed in the amendment. The HRA should do what is set out in paragraphs (a) to (e), but it is not an exclusive list.
	My noble friend asked me whether we should not be talking about registration of clinical trials instead of research. The amendment requires the HRA to promote the registration of research because we want to encourage transparency in all health and social care research. Greater knowledge about what research is under way or has already been undertaken is essential, so that new research can build on it, minimising the risks, intrusions and burdens for patients. We think that that applies to all research, not just clinical trials. The amendment requires the HRA to promote registration of research; it does not create a requirement for all research to be registered. I hope that that will ease my noble friend’s mind a little.
	In delivering its objective of facilitating safe and ethical research, I would expect the HRA to take into account what databases are available for the registration of research, any existing requirements to register research, the need for requirements on registration to be proportionate and practical, and what is happening internationally. In doing so, presumably the HRA would consult stakeholders on achieving this part of its objective.
	My noble friend asked me what is meant by,
	“promoting … the provision of access to data on which research findings or conclusions are based”.
	It is important that the data generated during research are made available to others, where possible, while protecting patient confidentiality. That helps to ensure that we maximise the benefit from investment in research. The Health Research Authority special health authority is currently planning to strengthen the research ethics committee review of researcher intentions, to make findings, data and tissue available. It is undertaking a pilot to consider whether the introduction of ethics officers will increase the proportion of favourable opinions at first review, improve the timelines of review and reduce the administrative burden on research ethics committees. That includes a review of researcher intentions to make findings, data and tissue available.
	My noble friend referred to patient confidentiality. I stress, as I have on previous occasions, that in promoting the provision of access to data on which findings or conclusions are based, the common law duty of confidentiality and the Data Protection Act 1998 apply. The HRA will need to take account of these in delivering this part of its objective. We do not believe that it is necessary to state this explicitly in paragraph (c) of Amendment 167.
	The noble Lord asked what is meant by,
	“promoting … the provision of information at the end of research to participants in the research”.
	Participants who take part in research have said that they want to be able to access the results of the research, and that was confirmed by recent HRA public engagement work. The HRA is working with others to set standards and provide guidance on how information should be provided to participants. Consideration of these plans against agreed standards will continue to be an issue for research ethics committees to review at approval. That work will continue through the HRA’s involvement work stream.
	My noble friend questioned whether the results should be released to every participant, perhaps in aggregated form. It will be for the HRA, as an NDPB, to set out in its guidance for researchers its expectations as to the information they should provide to research participants at the end of the study. We would expect the HRA to develop its expectations, not only with stakeholders but with research participants themselves. We do not think that it is necessary to state explicitly that information should be in aggregated form.
	As regards access to tissues, my noble friend made a good point. Human tissue is a valuable resource for research. Disposal should be a last resort. Making tissue available at the end of a study allows other researchers to make use of material already collected. Maximising potential for research from tissue collected helps to reduce the risks, burdens and intrusions placed on people by minimising the need to collect further tissue. Making tissue available at the end of a research study might involve the tissue being transferred to an appropriately licensed tissue bank, for example. We recognise that tissue has a limited life, and, through quality and assurance systems, tissue that should be disposed of is identified by either the tissue bank or the researcher. I can expand on that for my noble friend if he would like me to.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, asked whether the Government would ensure that CCGs and NHS staff engage in research. I am pleased to remind her that CCGs have a duty to promote research under the Health and Social Care Act 2012. I hope that that has covered at least the majority of the questions.
	Amendment 165 agreed.
	Clause 100: The HRA’s functions
	Amendments 166 and 167
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	166: Clause 100, page 85, line 12, leave out “such research” and insert “research that is safe and ethical (including by promoting transparency in research)”
	167: Clause 100, page 85, line 25, at end insert—
	“( ) Promoting transparency in research includes promoting—
	(a) the registration of research;
	(b) the publication and dissemination of research findings and conclusions;
	(c) the provision of access to data on which research findings or conclusions are based;
	(d) the provision of information at the end of research to participants in the research;
	(e) the provision of access to tissue used in research, for use in future research.”
	Amendments 166 and 167 agreed.
	Schedule 8: Research ethics committees: amendments
	Amendment 168
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	168: Schedule 8, page 132, line 45, leave out from second “a” to end of line 3 on page 133 and insert “research ethics committee recognised or established by or on behalf of the Health Research Authority under the Care Act 2013.”
	Amendment 168 agreed.
	Clause 112: Regulations and orders
	Amendment 169
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	169: Clause 112, page 92, line 25, leave out “or duty”
	Amendment 169 agreed.
	Clause 114: Commencement
	Amendment 169A not moved.
	Amendment 170
	 Moved by Earl Howe
	170: Clause 114, page 94, line 23, after “cases)” insert “or 71 (after-care under the Mental Health Act 1983)”.
	Amendment 170 agreed.

Universal Credit, Personal Independence Payment, Jobseeker’s Allowance and Employment and Support Allowance (Claims and Payments) Regulations 2013
	 — 
	Motion of Regret

Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton
	That this House is concerned that provisions in the Universal Credit, Personal Independence Payment, Jobseeker’s Allowance and Employment and Support Allowance (Claims and Payments) Regulations 2013 (SI 2013/380) to provide for the payment of universal credit awards on a monthly basis may result in budgeting pressures on low income families; and further regrets that universal credit awards being paid in respect of children or rent charges will not by default be paid to the main carer of the children or to the person liable for that charge, and expresses concerns that this may impact disproportionately on women and vulnerable members of society.

Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, the regulations before us this evening cover a range of matters, including the claims and payment arrangements and contributory ESA and JSA, as well as arrangements for claiming and payment of the personal independence payment. The thrust of this Motion is to focus on the awards and payment arrangements for universal credit. Of course, these regulations are only one set of a raft of regulations that we have considered concerning universal credit and other benefit changes. Some may
	be a distant memory in terms of the legislative process, but they are a looming reality for many. The context of all this has shifted dramatically since the start of the Summer Recess, when we were assured by the Minister that we could rest easy in our beds, that universal credit was on time and on budget and that everything was going swimmingly.
	The Secretary of State told Parliament in March that universal credit,
	“is proceeding exactly in accordance with plans”.—[ Official Report , Commons, 5/3/2013; col. 827.]
	However, the September NAO report uncovered the truth, describing how the Major Projects Authority raised concerns about the DWP having no detailed blueprint and transition plan for universal credit, which must therefore be reset. It recites that the Government will not introduce universal credit to all new out-of-work claimants nationally from October 2013, but will add a further six pathfinder sites this month. The NAO report emphasises that the pathfinder systems have limited function and do not allow claimants to change details of their circumstances online, as was originally intended. The department does not yet know the extent to which the new IT systems will support national rollout. In its October 2011 business case, the DWP expected the universal credit caseload to reach 1.1 million by April 2014; that reduced to 184,000 in the December 2012 business case. What is it now? Can the Minister tell us when the Government will set out a detailed plan for the full rollout of universal credit?
	At a time when some of the poorest families in the land are being forced into debt by the bedroom tax and other measures, it is a scandal that the Government are writing off tens of billions of pounds of wasted expenditure because of their incompetent management of the universal credit programme. It is against this backdrop—where the department has delayed rolling out universal credit to claimants, has had weak control of the programme, is not achieving value for money, has been overoptimistic about timescales and has demonstrated lack of openness about progress—that we are obliged to return to some of the basic architecture of the scheme, to challenge whether it, too, has lacked the rigour of full analysis and, in particular, whether some of the protections against the worst impact of monthly payments are fit for purpose.
	We cannot yet look to the April pathfinders for help as their scope is very narrow, covering where universal credit is applied to those who are single, are without children, are not claiming disability benefits, do not have caring responsibilities and are not entitled to housing support, but have a bank account and national insurance number. Clearly, these pathfinders will not tell us much about the impact of universal credit on low-income families and those who rent. The characteristics of those admitted to the further October pathfinders are not clear. Perhaps the Minister will tell us what those characteristics are and especially whether they will involve those who rent their homes. If not, at what point will universal credit be applied to those that do? So far as monthly payments are concerned, has the payments exception policy been applied yet to any recipient of universal credit under the pathfinders?
	The substantive issues we raise tonight are not new—we raised them throughout our deliberations on the Welfare Reform Bill, and the Minister will doubtless hear from noble Lords with the same force and passion as was evident then. As our Motion sets out, our concerns are about the impact of monthly payments of universal credit on low-income families and about putting the clock back to the days where support for children did not go directly to the main carer and where the default position of rent support going directly to tenants increased the prospect of poor families losing their homes. We know that the justification for making monthly payments direct to claimants is that it will encourage personal budgetary responsibility and mirror the world of work. This is despite the fact that only half of those earning less than £10,000 a year are paid on a monthly basis. Life on benefits is not a comfortable existence for anyone who has tried it—and not just for a week here or there. There is the grinding awfulness of the poverty it brings, where there is simply no margin for error and where hanging on for the next payment date and juggling the cash to meet the next most pressing bill is the routine stuff of life. The temptation is to skip a payment here to meet a pressing payment there and risk becoming trapped in a cycle of debt.
	How will monthly payments and assessments make things better? Research by the Social Market Foundation concludes that they will not, the Government’s exception policy notwithstanding. Although supporting the Government’s aim of encouraging greater personal responsibility and financial resilience, it concludes that changes to the payments and assessments system,
	“could cause significant hardship for families on the lowest incomes”.
	Its research outlined the budgeting methods that many households adopt to see them through, which inevitably involve debt of some sort, whether formal or informal. The households that it researched cited, in particular, the fact that more frequent payments served as a method to help them ration their income and restrain their spending. They feared that the larger payment might be spent too quickly, given the competing demands on their low income. On the exceptions policy, the Social Market Foundation expressed concern that a centralised system of identifying vulnerable claimants was an inefficient way of helping households and suggested an alternative of claimants being able to opt in to a budgeting portal. Have the Government given that any thought?
	The Child Poverty Action Group focused on the “rough justice” that can ensue from monthly assessments where benefit claimants receive increased entitlements but which disadvantage claimants whose entitlement reduces. All of this is happening at a time when the discretionary social fund has been abolished along with crisis loans, community care grants and budgeting loans. They are to be replaced by payments on account or short-term advances and local welfare provision to be provided by local authorities. Short-term advances are much more restricted in scope than crisis loans and are only payable to benefit claimants in very tightly prescribed circumstances. As CPAG points out, that will not cover situations where a person has no, or insufficient, money to meet basic needs. Budgeting
	loans will continue to be payable to universal credit claimants, subject to strict criteria, on a discretionary basis with no right of appeal.
	As for local provision, a recent Children’s Society report identified that money given to local authorities to replace community care grants and crisis loans is only a little over 50% of the equivalent spending at 2010 levels. Hard-pressed local authorities are in no position to make up any shortfall. Have any universal credit claimants under the current pathfinders been eligible for support for local welfare provision, short-term advances or budgeting loans, and what has been their experience?
	We know that low-income families are poorly placed to cope with the current economic challenges. Some 10 million low-income households are in unsecured debt; three-quarters of those in the lowest income quartile have no cash savings. The cost of living squeeze is not only hitting the poorest, although it bears more heavily on them. Current levels of inflation will mean that universal claimants endure a real cut in their income at a time when energy bills are soaring and childcare costs are rising at almost 6% a year.
	One thing is certain. For those who currently struggle to make their benefit receipt last until the end of the fortnight, the temptation to resort to payday lending will be enormous. For irresponsible payday lenders, the temptation to exploit an expanded market created by monthly payments will be irresistible, and with it the risk that continuous payment agreements will drain bank accounts as soon as benefit payments arrive. We applaud the work that the Minister is doing in encouraging the expansion of credit unions, but note that he is on record as seeking to restrict continuous payment agreements to accounts of benefit claimants until utility bills and rent have been accounted for. Could we have an update on that work? Will the Minister support the call that Ed Miliband has made for a special levy on these payday lenders, so that further moneys can be channelled into credit unions?
	We raised the issue of the impact of universal credit payments on women, because time and time again it is women who are being hit hardest by this Government’s measures. It is women who are paying three times as much to get their deficit down, even though they still earn less than men. New mothers particularly are being hit, with House of Commons Library research showing that they will lose almost £3,000 during pregnancy and their baby’s first year.
	My noble friend Lady Lister will say more about the wallet to purse issue, given her deep understanding of its history, and why the hard-won settlement should not be put in jeopardy. However, the Government have implicitly acknowledged the concerns we have raised about monthly payments, payments going to the main carer where children are involved, and payments going directly to landlords, because those have all been covered in their proposed alternative payment arrangements. As far as it goes, that is to be welcomed, but it raises a number of issues about how it will work in practice. The main concern is that this is a centralised system. Jobcentre Plus will decide whether an individual can have an APA and there is no right of appeal against an
	adverse decision. The key issue is whether Jobcentre Plus will have the capacity to make the determination a potential entitlement on a fair basis, given the range of circumstances that has to be taken into account.
	Will the Minister indicate the expected number of claimants who will receive an alternative payment arrangement by, say, April 2014 and by full rollout? We have seen the first draft of the local support framework, which sets out the principles of the support that will be offered. However, what was planned as phase 2 of the universal credit rollout was supposed to provide the basis for the DWP and local authorities to start to plan these vital services. What is the plan now, given the revised universal credit rollout?
	The Government have also launched demonstration projects to test how claimants can manage monthly payments of housing benefit. These are supposed to inform the final development and design of the exceptions policy. Will the Minister please update us on whether the projects will include any circumstances where monthly payments of rent are made under universal credit, rather than under the existing benefits regime?
	We have supported the introduction of universal credit and will continue to do so, despite the project being seriously off-track. We have offered our support to help to restore confidence in the project. We have an unease about some of its components, especially combined monthly payments as the default position, and we will continue to press for the development of fair, comprehensive and practical exemption arrangements. We make no apology for promising to revisit these issues regularly and robustly. I beg to move.

Baroness Lister of Burtersett: My Lords, there are many issues raised by the claims and payments regulations, but I plan to focus on the two that I raised in our debates on the Bill itself: monthly payments and payment into single accounts. These are lumped together in the guidance on personal budgeting support in a way that is not very helpful, because there are different issues at stake—a point to which I will return. Nevertheless, some questions relate to both matters: most fundamentally on both, the Government have rejected the arguments made by many noble Lords for choice about payment arrangements in favour of a convoluted system of personal budgeting support, which I suspect is going to be pretty difficult and staff-intensive to administer.
	The clear injunction in the guidance that alternative payment arrangements are not available through choice would appear to contradict the earlier claim in the guidance that they would be claimant-centric—that is, done with, rather than to, the claimant. While I am pleased that the policy is no longer couched in the language of exceptions and vulnerability, designed to make a claimant feel different, this still appears to be the underlying philosophy.
	This is also revealed in the argument that alternative payment arrangements should be temporary, to avoid labelling claimants as financially incapable. However, it is the Government who are in effect labelling them as such, by requiring claimants, who may be managing as well as can be expected, to adapt to payment systems that might simply be inappropriate for their
	circumstances. This determination to change claimants’ behaviour smacks of the kind of social engineering that sits uneasily with both traditional Conservative and liberal philosophy.
	In our previous debate on regulations, the Minister said that he would be able to provide more information about the department’s working assumptions on the number and proportion of claimants likely to be deemed to require personal budgeting support,
	“as we work our way through”.—[Official Report, 13/2/13; col. 755.]
	As that was eight months ago, is the Minister now in a position to provide more information, as requested by my noble friend Lord McKenzie of Luton in his excellent and passionate opening speech? In particular, will he provide the information regarding those requiring monthly or split payments? Does he accept SSAC’s warning that the range of claimants who require these facilities may be greater than anticipated?
	Will the Minister also explain how personal budgeting support will work with couples? In the case of joint claimants, will just one or both need to demonstrate the facts as listed in the annexe to the guidance? Will the decision about whether it is needed be based on a joint interview? Will money advice be offered to both members of a couple and will the Minister also advise us about the progress made with financial products such as jam jar accounts, which he earlier presented as a solution to just about all payment problems?
	In July, the Minister was still able to tell the Work and Pensions Select Committee only that he hoped to be,
	“coming up with something in the not-too-distant future”.
	That is not very encouraging. Has he also taken on board the Social Market Foundation’s warning that jam jar accounts, while potentially beneficial,
	“have only partial applicability across the claimant population”,
	because of strong resistance from a significant number? Part, though not all, this resistance was because of the likely cost to the claimant. As the Communities and Local Government Select Committee observed:
	“More information is needed … on how these accounts would work and who would pay for them”.
	The Social Market Foundation cites evidence from the financial inclusion taskforce of the lack of appetite for financial products among about half of the unbanked. Those without a bank or Post Office account will be able to use the Simple Payment service to receive their benefit. As the Minister confirmed in a Written Answer, the problem with this is that it requires claimants to withdraw the whole amount, and not part, of each benefit payment at the same time, up to a limit of £600. This is potentially a lot of cash to withdraw in one go and leaves the claimant vulnerable to both robbery and temptation. Although it is estimated that only about 60,000 working-age claimants will be paid in this way, it is a cause for concern. Why is it not possible to draw part of the payment, as this would surely often be the responsible thing to do?
	This brings me to the question of monthly payments, because if it were a more frequent payment, this would not be such an issue. Since noble Lords from across the House first raised concerns about monthly payments,
	evidence has been mounting to demonstrate just how un-claimant-centric this policy is. It is clear, from both government and independent research, that a significant number of claimants—particularly those out of work—see this as posing a real risk to their financial security. They fear it will upset their budgeting strategies and leave them running out of money.
	In a DWP press release about early findings from the direct payment demonstration projects, the Minister acknowledged that the findings,
	“show that most people on low incomes manage their money well.”
	As SSAC has noted, one of the key lessons was that:
	“Budgeting support needs to recognise that people on low incomes often budget on a fortnightly or weekly basis.”
	Has it not occurred to the noble Lord that there is a connection here? As the demonstration projects show, many people on low incomes use fortnightly or weekly budgeting strategies as a means of managing their money well. Research shows that mothers, in particular, often take great pride in doing so. By forcing them to change their budgeting strategies, the Government could be setting them up to fail, a message that comes across clearly from the SMF study cited by my noble friend.
	That is likely to have an adverse impact on morale, as well as living standards and, in doing so, could undermine the very objective of making claimants more work-ready. Where a more frequent payment is agreed, it will be paid in arrears, in addition to the new seven-day waiting period for some claimants. As the Women’s Budget Group has pointed out, this means that,
	“claimants would be paid only half what they are owed for the month seven days after the end of that month and will then wait another half month for the remaining half. This would seem to contradict the Government’s wish to help those who find monthly payment most difficult and can result in hardship cases and requests for advance payments.”
	Women’s Aid, to which I am grateful for its briefing, warns that most survivors fleeing domestic violence will have no alternative to claiming a budgeting advance. I appreciate why the Government are not keen to make a half payment in advance, but does the Minister accept that it would create fewer problems than paying in arrears?
	As I said earlier, the question of payment into a single account versus a split payment raises rather different issues to that of monthly payment, even if both are likely to have adverse gendered impact. It is about access to, and control over, money rather than about managing it. The erroneous treatment of split payments as a management issue is illustrated by the guidance on when to review alternative payments. It says that the adviser,
	“will decide that the claimant is now capable of managing the standard monthly payment.”
	Where a split payment has been granted because of domestic violence, as opposed to a partner’s financial mismanagement, such advice is surely irrelevant. On what basis will a decision whether to continue a split payment be made? Does the Minister accept that there may be some situations where it cannot be treated as a temporary measure?
	At present, the guidance seems to suggest that split payments will be an option only in cases of financial abuse or domestic violence. Can the Minister confirm that they will not necessarily be restricted to such cases? With whom will an adviser discuss this question and, even more importantly, the initial decision to make a split payment? Will it be both partners, and if so, will it be discussed separately or together, or will it be just the partner in need of diversion? If the latter, what will the other partner be told about the interview? How will advisers negotiate with gendered power relations which are likely to be at work between the partners to ensure that they have a true picture of the situation?
	The department’s study of the implementation of JSA DB easement revealed a reluctance to disclose domestic violence to advisers, a concern that was raised by SSAC. This is likely to be the case here too. How will advisers detect domestic abuse, particularly when it is not manifested physically? Where a male partner uses the threat of abuse of various kinds to control a female partner, it could well be kept hidden. What steps can be taken to ensure that a split payment, which reduces the money paid to the perpetrator, does not provoke further domestic violence? Will the Minister indicate what training in financial abuse and domestic violence is proposed for universal credit advisers? More generally, what is the department’s response to SSAC’s recommendation for an effective training programme designed to ensure that advisers have a sufficient understanding and capability to manage the complex and dynamic nature of risk and vulnerability within universal credit?
	It is important that the evaluation does not conflate the effects of wrapping up a number of benefits in one payment with payment into a single account under the rubric of a single payment, as did earlier departmental research.
	At present, the guidance seems to suggest that split payments will be an option only in cases of financial abuse or domestic violence. Can the Minister confirm that they will not necessarily be restricted to such cases? It is not always possible to foresee situations in which they might be appropriate, and it would therefore be wrong to rule out other scenarios in advance. Indeed, Fran Bennett, to whom I am grateful for her briefing, suggested adding the scenario where a lone parent with children from a previous relationship takes an unemployed new partner into her rented accommodation. It may not be conducive to the success of a new relationship if one partner has control of all their joint universal credit.
	I apologise for asking so many questions, but I cannot find the answers in the public advice and guidance. Reading that guidance, I am not convinced that the department fully appreciates how delicate and difficult an issue this is in any couple where there are difficulties of any kind with regard to control over money. Indeed, only last week, in discussing other regulations, the Minister drew attention to the extent of domestic abuse. If the fears of organisations such as Women’s Aid are realised, I suspect that the Government will have to revisit the policy and rethink
	the default position to ensure that both members of a couple have direct access to their share of universal credit, if they want it.
	The Government’s refusal to listen to reason on these key payment issues could derail the successful implementation of universal credit, which is already looking somewhat shaky, to put it kindly. During the passage of the Bill the noble Lord, Lord Boswell, said,
	“if this is the nail in the shoe that gets the whole thing discredited because it does not work or gives rise to disturbing social consequences, we will have lost the great prize of universal credit that many of us want”.—[ Official Report , 10/10/11; col. GC 434.]
	We should remember the lessons from the child support legislation, when widespread consensus about key principles meant that insufficient scrutiny of the practical details led to one of the worst examples of social policy-making in recent history. I hope that even at this late stage, the Minister will take heed and remove the payments nail from the universal credit shoe.

Lord German: My Lords, I agree with some of the sentiments that we have just heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and with some of those that we heard in the opening speech of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. It seems that there are questions which need to be asked and questions which are still outstanding. However, perhaps some of the clues to the answers that we need to those questions can be found within the noble Lord’s opening speech. He said that we do not yet have the evidence from the rollout of universal credit to give us the learning pattern that we need to establish the route forward for some of the detailed questions which lie before us. They are real issues.
	I draw back to the principles that lie behind the way in which you construct a process dealing with these three major, complex issues. It depends on which way you look through the prism or telescope. As was rightly said, they are all about changing behaviour and the way in which people do things. It is about where the balance lies. Is it in devising, on the one hand, a system where the needs of the most difficult determine its shape, or, on the other hand, do you run with the generality of people’s capabilities and then provide specific support for those who cannot manage, whether that is in the short or long term or transitionary?
	I am drawn to the second of those approaches. That is how you encourage self-reliance and how people will be better able to manage their lives and futures: working with the flow and giving a helping hand to those who need it as appropriate. The difficulty, of course, is in where to draw the balance—the line between the one and the other—then in devising structures which are based on a general capability, and then in devising where the boundaries are in providing that assistance and support. From what I have heard so far in the debate, whatever support is provided it must be local, flexible and based upon a local assessment of where people are. Perhaps the Minister can tell me what those processes might be.
	In annexe A to the universal credit guidance on budget support, we were given two tiers of categories under which people might need extra support and, possibly, alternative payment arrangements: highly likely
	factors in tier one and less likely factors in tier two. That was quite an extensive list of 22 different categories of people who will need some form of support with the way in which universal credit is rolled out. If you have a rigid, centralised structure which comes from decisions taken here in London, it will not necessarily meet the ambition of a flexible approach provided with local understanding and assessment.
	I will also address some of the issues relating to how these payments will be made. One of the conflicting issues which has now arisen is the consequence for the Post Office card account, which the Government support and which provides a form of basic banking. One of the primary reasons that many in your Lordships’ House would like to see that sort of support continue is that it provides footfall across our local post offices. For many post offices, particularly in urban inner-city areas, that is the means by which they continue to survive. I hear of the Post Office card account plus, which is a trial going on in the east of England with an additional capability for providing jam pots by means of direct debits. Can my noble friend the Minister reassure me that the Post Office card account, or a replacement for it, will exist when the contract for that account comes to an end in March 2015, and that we are trying with the rollout of universal credit to provide the best facilities for people so that they can take advantage of cheaper budgeting arrangements by means of direct debits and other means of payment, particularly to energy companies?
	On the issue of monthly payments, which is a major change, perhaps we should look back at the evidence from 2009 when the previous Government changed from a weekly to a fortnightly payment system. That was a doubling that we discussed during proceedings on the Welfare Reform Bill. What evidence came out of that shift? Did the department undertake any active research to find out whether the shift in 2009 had caused any behavioural change, whether there had been major difficulties as a result, whether people’s budgeting arrangements made them fall into arrears, whether they were unable to cope, and whether we could learn any lessons appropriate for the current regime?
	After all, we know that claimants will face many management challenges and, where there is a clear need, they will require a level of assistance. It is in this area that I wonder whether Jobcentre Plus, given the strictures placed upon it, has the capability to handle that money advice. We are told in the information with which we have been provided that claimants will be referred to online, telephone or face-to-face support with expert providers at a national or local level, depending on the issue. I understand that this money advice has to be readily available but will it be available to people locally? Will the people making decisions on the back of the advice that people have been given be able to take those decisions and treat people differently? There are concerns about vulnerable people moving on to a monthly payment. It matters that we as a Government are able through Jobcentre Plus to manage the whole process in a local and flexible manner. That goes back to the first set of principles that I outlined.
	In respect of payment to one member of the family—the split payments issue that the noble Baroness, Lady
	Lister, raised—the decision on who will receive the funding in a household is crucial. Given that we have not had the rollout in any area where this policy will have an effect, has the Minister had any thought as to how the need to be flexible regarding who receives the payment will be dealt with? Who will make that decision? Will it be the household? If the household makes a nomination, how will we be certain that that is correctly the view of the whole household, given that there are sometimes pressures that may not be appropriate? Given that there are 12 categories of people who may be treated differently because of the need for alternative payment arrangements, how will that be taken into account locally and how will it be dealt with?
	I should like to turn to the question of what level of arrears might be built up, on which we have some evidence from demonstration projects. Can my noble friend confirm that the findings in May 2013 from the department’s work on these trials show that the level of payments were on average 94%, with the lowest being 91% and the highest 97%? Whatever is the case—and the percentage figures are in the 90s—a whole range of people is falling into arrears and represent the gap between 94% and 100%. Can my noble friend provide us with more information on how that will work?
	Finally, I reiterate the point about the rollout of universal credit. This is something in which we have all invested our support because it is a crucial change to the way in which we make more efficient and effective ways to support people. It is concerning that we are having to extend that rollout. May we have the latest information on how that will be projected into the future and when we can expect the regime to be fully in place?

The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for bringing this matter to our attention again, and for the three powerful speeches which we have already heard. First, I want to emphasise my concern about that part of the Motion which speaks of the way in which universal credit awards paid in respect of children will not necessarily by default be paid to the main carer of the children and the disproportionate impact this will have on women. Through my work, I have become increasingly aware of the mother’s crucial role in the sorts of situations that we have been discussing over the past few minutes and indeed over the past few years. The mother needs to have proper control of the money which is coming for the benefit of the family and in respect of her children. I hope that in our discussions and the way in which the regulations and the whole universal credit system are worked out we shall be able to pay attention to the mother’s role, which in many circumstances is crucial when the whole family is under severe stress.
	Secondly, I share the concerns which have been expressed by all previous speakers about the impact of the monthly payments system. It is already beginning to make it more difficult to control the finances of the family and, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, said, there is the danger of opening the way for payday lenders. We are already seeing considerable growth in the work of payday lenders. That in itself is not yet
	due to universal credit but my fear is that universal credit will become a factor as the monthly payment system comes into being.
	I wanted to take up one particular detail of the regulations which fits in with the monthly payment concerns but is also specific. Regulation 26 of Part 2 speaks of the back-dating of universal credit and limiting that back-dating to some very narrow categories. This contrasts with the present situation for tax credits, which can be back-dated for up to 31 days so long as the claimant meets the rule of entitlement throughout that period.
	I raise that question for two reasons. One is that many people will become eligible for universal credit at the birth of a new child—a particularly difficult moment to be making your claim. Secondly, the regulations acknowledge the possibility of the failure of systems. However, it will be hard to prove that failure if a claim is delayed or not made until three or four weeks after the claimant is entitled to make it, especially if that reason involves the inability of the claimant to access the system, whether due to a fault in the system itself or due to the claimant’s online skills.
	What I would like the Minister to say to us is that one-month’s back-dating would be legitimate without a particular reason needed for it. That would reduce bureaucracy and would reduce the complexity of making claims. If he cannot do that, then at least there should be a back-dating for families who have become eligible for universal credit because they have had a new child and are busy with the celebration of its birth. That should happen without the requirement for “medical evidence” to demonstrate the incapacity to claim. Not getting online at the point when you are having a child seems to me to be a self-evident reason for delay in making your claim. There are far more important things to be doing on the day of the birth of your child, are there not?
	Can the Minister clarify the circumstances under which a claimant is considered unable to make a claim online as a result of system failure, and whether that can include not just a direct failure of the system but also the difficulties that individuals are facing and will face in getting online to make a claim? I hope that the Minister will be able to give some reassurance so that people do not miss out on credits to which they are entitled by the regulations.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, I will follow the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds in his point about going online. First, I want to say, as others have said, that I very much support universal credit and I am watching with wry horror now the number of people being taken to court for failure to pay the £2 or £2.50 owed on their council tax bills by virtue of the localised council tax system. One wishes that some other parts of the Government had listened to some of the debates that we had in Grand Committee on that subject.
	Like others, I am concerned about where some of the cuts are going to fall. In particular, I remain worried by the disincentives to second earners, usually
	women, in couples whom we want to encourage to go back into the labour market. We increasingly make it less financially worth while that they should do so. I think that is very foolish indeed.
	However, my biggest concern has been not just the payment problems, which my noble friends Lady Lister and Lord McKenzie have mentioned, but the assessment issues associated with them. Perhaps I may remind the noble Lord that, as far as I am aware, most of the pathway schemes and experiments so far have been with younger people in urban areas. They are more likely to be IT-literate and more likely to have access to IT facilities. I am chair of a housing association that runs across a rural county. A substantial proportion of my older tenants have no access to WPs. Of those who do, only 14%, when I had my last tenants’ conference, actually used them for financial matters, such as the handling of bank accounts and so on. In order for those other tenants to be able to claim universal credit, they have somehow to access a WP. I have four centres across the county of Norfolk—in King’s Lynn, Norwich, Dereham and Great Yarmouth, and possibly North Walsham, but we will see—in which we will set up local offices. There will be terminals and there will be people to guide people through their applications. That is fine, except that people may have to go on something like a 15-mile bus ride to make their application. Because it is a paperless system, they will not be able to correct any mistakes online. They will not be able to answer any queries about the information. They will not be able to follow it up because they will be back home.
	I tried to see whether there was any way I could bring IT facilities to people in that situation. I considered, for example, whether I could provide terminals in people’s homes inexpensively, possibly through a leasing system. Yes, I could, except that those same tenants cannot afford to pay the broadband or dial-up charges. So I cannot put them online in their homes. I then thought about whether I could in some way get them smartphones to give them some online access. No, they cannot afford the charges of smartphones. So they cannot afford to go online. Indeed, in some parts of Norfolk you cannot even get access to broadband, but that is another matter. We have only 90% coverage, so sod the 10%. No doubt they will get their money somehow. None the less, in large parts of Norfolk, there will be a large number of people who have no access to terminals in their home or to a smartphone, who have no computer skills, who have to go into a local centre, and who, if any mistake is made, will have no ability to correct it.
	You may think that assessment will be only once a year or once every six months and therefore this is a minor problem compared with the payment issues. I hope that is right, but one of the crucial reasons why the old CSA computer toppled over, which was at the core of the failure of the CSA to deliver the service it should have delivered, was that half of all lone parents had more than 12 changes of circumstances in a year. They were largely associated with changes in childcare at each holiday period because it did not fit the school’s working time or the mother’s work patterns. You can get real-time information from an employer about income, but you cannot get real-time information in
	the same way for ever-changing childcare bills. That means that that lone parent or that couple will have to reassess, reclaim and adjust their UC online as it is going to be paperless. Will the Minister tell me how I should respond to this? I have hundreds of tenants who at the moment have no IT skills, no access to gaining them, although I am trying to do crash courses where people are willing to take them, no terminals at home, no ability to afford dial up if it were to exist and no access to phones. How are they going to input the information they need to input to get the money they are entitled to? I would be glad of some help on this point.

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope: I shall make a short contribution to this important debate. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for introducing it. Using a Motion of Regret is clunky, but this is important. I shall start with a question about parliamentary process. Things have changed since the old days. In my experience of parliamentary change of this kind, Bills were much less far reaching and were implemented over a much shorter timescale. After the six-month period of purdah, Ministers could always explain the unfolding of the regulations that flowed from the primary Act. We are getting to a stage where we are paying more attention to guidance rather than to statutory instruments. Statutory instruments are becoming almost as skeletal as the primary legislation. Therefore, how are parliamentarians able to keep up with what is going on, particularly when this is at least a five-year implementation phase? I think it would be a good trick if the Government could achieve it in a five-year period.
	In parenthesis, I want to strengthen the Minister’s hand. Speaking for myself, I am much more interested in getting this universal credit reform right than I am in sticking to any timetable, political or otherwise. I have next to no interest in what will happen in May 2015 compared with this important legislation. It is transformational architecture, but because it is transformational, it is difficult to deliver for reasons that we have heard.
	It is not just that it is taking five years to do. It is now intimately engaged with other government departments. HMRC is the prime one, but not the only one. There is also DCLG—is it DCLG or DCLM?

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: DCLG.

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope: Thank you. I am Scottish. Luckily it does not apply to me.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham: You are lucky.

Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope: I know.
	We have a lot of extra heavy lifting to do to try to make sense of what is going on. If that was not enough, we have for the first time a completely transformational application of ICT technology in digital delivery. All that means that this has to be done slowly and sensitively. I would like to think that the kind of flexibility that the Minister showed in the seminal Committee stage of the 2012 Act is still available to us because if he is not sensitive to the sort of things
	that are being raised he risks prejudicing public perception of what he is trying to do, as the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, said.
	I am absolutely certain that the vast majority of people who will need to take advantage of universal credit in future are literate and have internet access. We know from government research that the penetration of digital technology is increasing and will continue to do so. It is the two lowest deciles of income distribution in terms of household income that I continue to lose sleep about—people who earn less than £10,000 a year. We have been hearing about some of these acute problems and they are just as acute as they were in 2012. I understand that we have to hasten slowly to get this right, but we have to find a better way of informing Parliament about what is going on. I think the next set of detailed guidance that we can expect—my spies tell me and my spies are everywhere—will be in the late summer of 2014 and the next substantial rollout might not be until the spring of 2015. How are we, as parliamentarians, to keep up with what is actually going on? Reading the newspapers is not always helpful because, although they can highlight some of the problems, they do not tell the whole story.
	I make a plea to the Minister. Can he think about ways of dealing with this other than Motions of Regret? It is a game we can all play, and we could do it every month if we had to, but I think there is a more grown-up way of accepting that, for the next two years and, indeed, for the rest of this Parliament, there will be periods when the Government could find a parliamentary opportunity for us to have a sensible discussion, be given reassurances and ask these detailed questions which are so important, not just to us, but to the people outside.
	I agree with everything that has been said about the monthly payment, particularly by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. That is probably my biggest worry. I know that she has more expertise than I about the split payments, but I listened carefully to what she had to say and I think that her questions deserve answers. The additional problem of behavioural change, on top of everything else, is something that is too dangerous, and I wish we were not doing it at all. Maybe we could do it in future, when this gets straightened out, but it is too risky to do it in this way.
	My final point before I sit down, because it is late, is that the SSAC has done a very good job. I still remember the long look I got down the ministerial nose when I suggested this at the beginning. This was my idea, because I thought it would help. Luckily, the Minister eventually took my advice. The SSAC has done a remarkable job and I hope that the Minister will continue to involve it. Although it does not have any statutory control over guidance, if we get to the position where guidance is needed, such as in the definition of what is vulnerable, and we cannot get that clear with the stakeholders that the SSAC knows and works with so well, then we will be lost when this gets implemented. I hope that the Minister will give us an assurance that the SSAC will have a key and continuing role in this evaluation and monitoring process. Otherwise, it will be more difficult to achieve successfully.

Lord Freud: My Lords, I should genuinely like to thank everyone who has spoken today. I want to emphasise that I listen very closely to what noble Lords say in this House and, without shame, steal as many of the good ideas as I can. This is not just with a long nose, using SSAC, which has done an extraordinary job in helping us to sort out not just the regulations on universal credit but a lot of other things, too. I shall describe some of what we have been doing since we went through that committee and some of the ideas that we debated together then which I have tried to use and embed.
	I hope also to allay some of the concerns expressed by noble Lords. When one has a new canvas, as we have here, one can worry about absolutely everything. It is important to be alert to the issues that one needs to worry about and then, as the evidence comes in, to see what the real problems are and to be able to move. We have laid out this evening a range of possible things that could go wrong. Some of them may go wrong and we will need to do something about them. Others may not emerge as issues, so it is important that we are watching this like a hawk.
	I will take this opportunity to remind noble Lords of what we are trying to do with universal credit. It is replacing not a good system but a flawed system, which has a lot of problems. It is designed so that claimants can better understand what their benefit is and so that their incentives are improved. It is dynamic and responsive and it influences claimant behaviour—we make no apology for that—by helping to ensure that they can see that work is always a better option. It brings together in-work and out-of-work support into a single payment, in a way that is not the case today. That is at the heart of what we are doing to break down the barriers that stop many people taking work in the first place.
	I will first touch on where we are with universal credit. A lot has been said about it in the press and by the National Audit Office, which the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, talked about. The National Audit Office said that further work and investment were required for full rollout; we know and acknowledge that. We are doing a pathfinder, which people are able to do online. Many more people than we expected as a proportion have done so, although noble Lords will not be slow to point out that they are a particular type of people. We have accepted the recommendations of the Major Projects Authority to review the IT and make it more flexible and secure, and we are looking very hard with GDS—the Government Digital Service—to see how we can get best value out of IT.
	I need to clarify a point that has confused some people. When the NAO said that there was no clear idea how the system would work, it is very clear that it was not referring to the policy. We have done an enormous amount of work—indeed, noble Lords in this Chamber have done a lot of work—in making that clear. It was about the IT technology underlying it; that is where the issues are.
	We have a pathfinder, which is up and working well. We go national this month. We start in Hammersmith
	in a few days and we will go forward with a further five jobcentres in the period up to next spring. Just as important as the pure universal credit is the rollout of key elements of universal credit, so every jobcentre will be using the claimant commitment by next spring. We are installing internet-access devices in 6,000 jobcentres across the country, which may be a solution to the problems that the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, talked about. We have 11 in-work progression pilots up and running, which test ways to help claimants on low incomes increase their working hours in order to reduce their dependency on benefits.
	We are right to go for a phased rollout to ensure that we test universal credit and the support available to vulnerable claimants every step of the way. We are working intensively, as noble Lords must imagine, to complete our rollout plans and we remain committed to delivering UC safely and securely over a four-year period to 2017. I echo what my noble friend Lord Kirkwood said about what was more important. I am not allowed to say that timetables are not important, because they are, but it is far more important that we do this safely and reliably and do not cause the kind of problems that noble Lords are worrying about when they think back to the CSA, for instance. We will make another announcement later in the autumn on further plans for the rollout.
	We are doing other testing; the direct payment demonstration project has been referred to. We have also had 12 local authority-led pilots testing face-to-face support. We are expanding the credit union pilots and the testing of a personal planner to prepare claimants for universal credit in a live environment.
	The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, asked about the claimants. Regrettably, we have a strict publication schedule; these are national statistics now, so the timing of publication of some of those details that noble Lords would love to hear about is such that we are aiming to start publishing at the end of this year, 2013, so there is not too long to wait.
	My noble friend Lord German talked about the importance of local flexible support. Picking up many of the ideas that we were discussing in Committee, the framework around UC is certainly almost as important for the vulnerable as UC itself, and that is what the local support services framework is about.
	In February, we published the principles of how those partnerships will work. This is something that we have not done as a country before, so we are really trying to pull in the support, looking at where we have overlaps and where we have gaps. We have had some extraordinarily close working partnerships between the Local Government Association, Scottish local authorities, the Welsh Local Government Association, the DWP, local authority representatives generally and third sector groups. We are really beginning to develop a plan and will issue the next iteration of that shortly, but that is going to be very much about the elements that we need to trial and test—detailed trialling and testing of all these different elements about which noble Lords are rightly concerned. We will incorporate into the update and test plan what we have been learning from the local authority-led pilots, the pathfinder and the direct payment demonstration projects, as well as feedback from staff.
	I have talked about the extra 6,000 computer terminals that we will have in jobcentres, but one of the things that the local support service framework will be looking at very closely is the provision of the kind of access that the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, was concerned about.
	The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, raised the issue of monthly payments. He and other noble Lords have been worried about how that will work. One of the important things about it is what it does for the poverty premium. I am going to talk about that in a little while, but let me go back to the basics here.
	With universal credit we are encouraging claimants to take responsibility for their financial affairs, particularly in relation to those issues that act as a barrier to work. About 75% of people have their wages paid monthly and that figure has been rising steadily over the past decade. In addition, more than 60% of those earning more than £15,000 per annum—which is where the majority of the UC working population sits—are now paid monthly. So this is about building a system for the majority with, as my noble friend indicated, support for those who need help to manage it. As noble Lords have pointed out, many claimants are currently paid multiple benefits: different amounts, different paydays, different frequencies, and that makes budgeting difficult. They may have learnt how to manage round it, but the cost of it is often the poverty premium.
	The poverty premium is, essentially, paying more for essential goods and services because you are unable to commit to monthly direct payments or take advantage of offers and discounts. Let me give some examples. Some energy companies offer a discount of up to £100 for customers who pay using a monthly direct debit plan and mobile phone bills can be up to three times more expensive if using a pay-as-you-go plan. Financially excluded households also pay more for essential household goods because they are less likely to have savings to cover unexpected spending or be able to access affordable credit. As a simple example, the price of a washing machine shows that I could pay £317 if I bought it today from a major online retailer but if I went instead to a weekly hire-purchase scheme I would end up paying more than £1,000 for exactly the same product.
	The poverty premium takes money away from the people who can least afford it. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, worries about the poverty premium as much as any other factor for these groups of people. If we can get it right, that is one of the most important and attractive features of paying people a proper amount of money monthly. It will help them change how they pay their bills; it will allow them cheaper tariffs for gas, electricity, mobile phones and other bills; it will help them develop financial capability and confidence and it will allow low-income households to build or improve credit ratings and gain access to affordable credit.
	We have to recognise that some people will need help to budget and we will have a budgeting conversation with each claimant when they make a new claim, identifying what help and support they need and ensuring that safeguards are in place to help them manage their money. We will ensure that those responsible for children and housing payments are supported where necessary. Couples will decide which bank account their universal
	credit payment will be paid to but, in cases where couples cannot decide, we will make payment either to the main child-carer or, if there are no children, to the person responsible for paying the bills. We can, if necessary, split the payment within the household or make more frequent payments. I remind noble Lords that child benefit will continue to exist outside universal credit and will be paid to the main carer.
	There is a concern that many claimants do not currently have access to a transactional bank account. I can reassure noble Lords that we already have a voluntary agreement with the major UK banks to offer basic bank accounts and we are working with the Treasury and the banking industry to review minimum standards for basic bank accounts. We are also consulting with financial providers across the private, social and third sectors to explore ways of making budgeting, or jam-jar, accounts more widely available.
	The POCA contract expires in 2015 with an option to extend for two years. I can inform my noble friend Lord German that we are currently in discussion with the Post Office regarding the future of the service. We are committed to ensuring that claimants have access to appropriate financial and banking products, and will continue to work with the Post Office to develop its suite of products in line with claimant needs. We continue to work on the budgeting, or jam-jar, account, looking at a range of potential budgeting tools. The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, asked about that.
	I have approved a further investment of £38 million to help credit unions provide financial services for up to 1 million more consumers by March 2019. That could save low-income consumers up to £1 billion in loan interest payments. Clearly, I have a great concern about the payday lending industry. I am in discussion with regulators, in particular the FCA, about how to make sure that they do not undermine the position of low-income households going into universal credit.
	On budgeting pressures and housing, I will emphasise why this is important. Monthly housing costs paid direct to claimants are a key to building up financial capability. Clearly, we cannot have a situation in which a barrier for someone moving from being out of work to being in work is the fact that they have to transform the way in which they pay their landlord. For claimants who genuinely cannot manage to pay their rent, we can make managed payments of rent to landlords to protect the tenancy. At the start of a claim, we will review the claimant’s financial capability, and we will look at it again if the claimant accumulates one month’s rent arrears as a result of persistent underpayment. At that stage, we will make an early intervention, reviewing what financial support they may need and making managed payments of rent to their landlord if necessary. If the claimant goes on to accumulate two month’s rent arrears, we will automatically pay the housing-cost element direct to the landlord, and cover the arrears through deductions from the universal credit.
	The noble Baroness, Lady Lister, referred to the way in which the payments were made. A budgeting advance can be made, but clearly it is just an advance; it is not a question of getting half early and another half
	at the end of the month. It is half early, the full amount at the end of the month and then a very gradual repayment of the early advance. Therefore, the position is not the one that the noble Baroness envisaged.
	On part-payment, we will have the ability to issue universal credit through a simple payment, as the noble Baroness requested. However, this will not be the right method of payment for the majority of claimants; we are looking for most people to be paid through a bank account, as they are already.
	On demonstration projects, my noble friend Lord German made the point that the average collection rate was 94%, and that the rates were improving. I believe that most claimants will be able to manage their household bills. However, where they cannot, we have safeguards in place to protect the household’s tenancy and the landlord’s financial position.
	We recognise the importance of safeguarding the welfare of tenant claimants who have incurred debts. Therefore, under universal credit, there will be a co-ordinated approach to making deductions, aimed at protecting the most vulnerable from financial hardship. Safeguards have been introduced, such as an overall maximum amount that can be deducted from someone’s universal credit each month, which equates to 40% of their standard allowance. This rate aligns with the amount that a claimant could receive under a hardship payment. If you look at the proportion of a standard payment, that boils down to a typical family of two parents and two children living in the rented sector seeing their overall payment decrease by a maximum of 13%.
	My noble friend Lord German asked who gets alternative payment arrangements. We will consider information provided by claimants, advisers, third-party organisations and anyone who may support or assist the claimant. We will make the alternative payment arrangements on a case-by-case basis and not through a centralised or automated system. Decisions will be made with the claimant rather than for the claimant. It is not about having a central system.
	I am running on a little long. If noble Lords would not mind me being another five minutes, I will go through some of the issues. I am conscious of the question about scarcity of information coming to noble Lords and ask their indulgence on that basis. I want to deal with as many of the issues as I possibly can.
	On the questions about women, households with single women and coupled households are, on average, better off after the introduction of universal credit. It still encourages people to work and benefits claimants who find the existing system a barrier to work.
	As my noble friend Lord German and the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, mentioned, a range of factors affect split payments: people with drug, alcohol and other addictions; learning difficulties; mental health conditions; temporary or supported accommodation; homelessness; severe debt problems; and domestic violence, which we have now defined in a much more satisfactory way. They do not make for an automatic switch to split payments or alternative payments, but mean that we have a basis on which to make a case-by-case consideration. On the issue of violence, we can take referrals from third parties such as support workers, landlords and others.
	More generally, universal credit incentivises second earners to work, with the number of second earners who lose more than 70% of their earnings by moving into work being significantly reduced. I am not ruling it out on any fundamental ground; there is a complexity issue here, but there is also a cost issue, given that there is already an incentive there.
	The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds raised backdating. We will expect households where there is a change of circumstances which means they become eligible for UC to make that claim as soon as possible. However, if they are in hospital or incapacitated we will consider a claim for backdating.
	The system failure issue is about system failure, not about people not being able to work the system; the system has to be down. I remind noble Lords that we have telephone and face-to-face systems and home visits as part of our service. It is not an automatic, “you have to use the online system and that’s that”. There will be a tiered system, although we are looking to get as many people online as possible. Indeed, it is amazing how the digital approach is taking off. We are now looking at people using not computers but smart phones. In fact, the GDS is being redesigned for a phone not a computer because that is the latest technology.
	I have committed to a very full programme of evaluation for universal credit. It will include studies of implementation covering themes such as customer, staff and stakeholder experience. We will ensure that we understand the impact of this reform on all types of claimants. We are currently evaluating the pathfinder, and through our work with claimants and external stakeholders, we are looking at a range of issues, including the impact of monthly payments and how people are budgeting. Clearly, early findings from that will inform the further rollout of universal credit.
	We believe that universal credit is the right approach. Indeed, I hear from noble Lords in this Chamber that the main approach is seen as the kind of root-and-branch reform that we need in our basic welfare system. It will provide better work incentives, but it is vital that we build around it a system that protects the most vulnerable and works with universal credit. I commend these reforms to the House. I trust that my response has reassured noble Lords and that as a consequence the Motion will not be pressed.
	I heard my noble friend Lord Kirkwood’s point about keeping the most informed and valuable audience in the country about this informed and in dialogue, and I will think about it pretty hard.

Baroness Lister of Burtersett: I am very sorry to prolong matters. I quite understand that it has not been possible to answer all the questions asked, but will the Minister undertake to write to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate with detailed responses to the questions that have been asked?

Lord Freud: I have tried to answer absolutely everything. I will double check. If I have missed anything, I will write on it, but my answers are on the record. I think that I answered virtually everything, but if there is anything more, I will make sure that I cover it.

Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I thank noble Lords who spoke in this debate. It has been a debate of some quality and detail. I also thank the Minister for his very detailed reply. Like my noble friend, I think it would be good to look at the record to see what, if anything, might be outstanding. We acknowledge that the Minister listens to the House and certainly responds to the House—for 28 minutes on this occasion.
	We welcome the announcement about credit unions. That is good news. As the Minister will, I hope, have understood, we are on the same page as far as support for universal credit is concerned. We are all signed up to a single in and out of work payment. We welcome the fact that the Minister has accepted the Major Projects Authority’s recommendations. On that, and touching on a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, about helping us keep abreast of what is happening, there was a contrast between our perception about where universal credit was when we went on holiday and the rather rude awakening of the NAO report. I hope there is a way of smoothing that in future.
	We have news about a further six pathfinders starting this month. The scope of the people involved in them is still a little unclear, as is whether it is still the fairly narrow category that we started with in April and, in particular, whether it excludes people who rent their accommodation. On the pathfinders—this again touches on one of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood—we do not want this to be rushed; we want it to be right. As I understand it, some of the early pathfinders are focused on helping subsequent policy development. That is why it is important that there is some co-ordination.
	I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds for his support. We are on the same page in concerns about payday lenders. The right reverend Prelate did get an answer about the backdating of universal credit. Whether it is sufficient, he may wish to reflect. He made the telling point about the crucial role of mothers in the evaluation and understanding of how universal credit should work.
	My noble friend Lady Hollis, as ever, put in a plea for council tax to be taken back in by the Government. Knowing my noble friend, this will be a recurring
	theme in our debates between now and goodness knows when—until Mr Pickles gives in. However, my noble friend did raise an important point about paperless transactions, how those work, how people correct the position, particularly when they are remote from IT access, particularly in rural areas.
	The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, talked about getting it right and about guidance being increasingly where the detail is. It used to be that the primary legislation was the framework and then the regulations would flesh that out in some detail. We are now shunting it further down the process. If there are ways of informing us along the way more effectively then that would be very helpful.
	My noble friend Lady Lister, as ever, made a powerful and telling contribution. She should never apologise for asking questions. What is important is that we get the answers—and I accept that we have had a raft of answers tonight. Whether we have had them all, we will have to read in the record. The points my noble friend made about the challenge to how the jam-jar accounts are working, how the system works for couples, and how one detects issues of domestic abuse and violence at home are really important ones and illustrative of the sort of detail that has to be outlined in the guidance on how it is going to work in practice. My noble friend also made the point that focusing on principles is fine but overlooking how it will work in practice is the slippery slope.
	Finally, the noble Lord, Lord German, also recognised that there are questions to be asked about the monthly payment issue, particularly about the capability of Jobcentre Plus, again an issue about which we have common concerns. He talked about arrears in the demonstration project. As I understand it, these are demonstration projects about monthly payment of housing benefit. Therefore, that is not a replica for monthly payments of universal credit because alongside the housing benefit payment there is the usual sequence of other payments. Now, how much one learns from that in developing the rest of the system, I am not sure. Having said all of that, I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
	Motion withdrawn.

House adjourned at 9.33 pm.